to blame Tony Blair for the lack of skilled workforce?

[dunkaccino]

In the 1980's only 15% of school leavers went into higher education leaving a good lot of people to become tradesmen/HGV drivers/butchers etc. Tony Blair decided in 1999 that 50% going to University was a great aim, which was finally achieved in 2019.

Now we have a lack of everyone useful - electricians, carpenters, fitters, engineers, butchers, drivers - coupled with a multitude of unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone.

Covid & brexit have undeniably both played a part, but AIBU to think that Blairs idea was basically a bit shit and has left us lacking in the skilled workforce needed to run the country?

We are also rather drifting away from the central question: why are we holding Tony Blair personally responsible for our current situation

Well, some tried to blame M Thatcher, so you can go as far back as you want! LOL

+Compared to generic ‘history’ - some universities take in students with CCD with the C being in history. They’re not suddenly going to blossom into academically inclined students just because they managed to get into uni. Our obsession with degrees is ridiculous*

This is so incorrect, I was a secondary teacher for 25 years. Academic acievement is a developmental thing. Some students don’t get into their stride until after A levels and it is really narrow minded to assume this.

My own dss coasted through A levels. Then got a degree from a mediocre university. Then ended up doing a PhD at a red brick. Now he works with Cambridge uni on research.

I don't blame young people for choosing a 'safe' salaried job given that we are the generation that came of age during the '08 recession and have been profiled to be more risk averse

The problem is that those salaried jobs are not safe any more and there is a skill shortage in other areas

Who said a person who did a degree can't learn a trade?

21 when most finish their 3 year degree is no age... we are now expected to work until 67. Multiple chances for multiple jobs across a lifetime. Jobs for life ended long time ago.

It just means more Options.....Education means More Options.

Why are we so against Further Education when other countries are so Pro-Education and pay 10,000's for their kids to come and get an Education in the UK.

It's about Global Competitive Advantage can we not see???

@alwayslearning789

Who said a person who did a degree can't learn a trade?

21 when most finish their 3 year degree is no age... we are now expected to work until 67. Multiple chances for multiple jobs across a lifetime. Jobs for life ended long time ago.

It just means more Options.....Education means More Options.

Why are we so against Further Education when other countries are so Pro-Education and pay 10,000's for their kids to come and get an Education in the UK.

It's about Global Competitive Advantage can we not see???

I'm one of those and the amount I spent on fees ALONE could have bought me a house outright!

Sometimes it's because we want a highly paid graduate job in the UK. Sometimes because our countries' unis are shit. Or require corruption, bribery or the right ethnicity to get in (which happened to me).

In any case foreign parents - the ones who pay that amount (hence not EU) are strict - especially if they're middle class and not independently wealthy. They know they are spending tons so they make sure that the kid has a solid plan. No choosing a degree without a good demand in the home country

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

+Compared to generic ‘history’ - some universities take in students with CCD with the C being in history. They’re not suddenly going to blossom into academically inclined students just because they managed to get into uni. Our obsession with degrees is ridiculous*

This is so incorrect, I was a secondary teacher for 25 years. Academic acievement is a developmental thing. Some students don’t get into their stride until after A levels and it is really narrow minded to assume this.

My own dss coasted through A levels. Then got a degree from a mediocre university. Then ended up doing a PhD at a red brick. Now he works with Cambridge uni on research.

So did he do a Master's in between at a more prestigious uni - what field is this in?

@alwayslearning789

Who said a person who did a degree can't learn a trade?

21 when most finish their 3 year degree is no age... we are now expected to work until 67. Multiple chances for multiple jobs across a lifetime. Jobs for life ended long time ago.

It just means more Options.....Education means More Options.

Why are we so against Further Education when other countries are so Pro-Education and pay 10,000's for their kids to come and get an Education in the UK.

It's about Global Competitive Advantage can we not see???

Because people see trades as 'beneath' a degree which is the other issue. A degree is not the only valid qualification. It's about a very specific set of academic skills. There is no issue with people getting one later in life, or something else first.

The issue is that people who DON'T want to go to uni - but don't want to choose a trade either are stuck because all of the entry level jobs they managed to be able to get like admin etc now need degrees. You don't make the best choices when you're 19

also realised that this isn't really point of thread...

No he did an MAat a mediocre uni. His area of study was Economics and Cambridge were chasing him to work with them.

My nephew: repeated year 13as he messed up. Went to a mediocre uni. Got a 1st. Now doing an MSc in Maths at York.

I could go on and on. My ds coasted through school and mediocre uni. Got on a prestigious MA at a red brick, now works on national media.

I’ve got loads of examples. Just because someone didn’t get brilliant A levels, doesn’t mean they aren’t capable. Life gets in the way, and they are often not developmentally ready.

I’ve seen it so many times in teaching, they mess up A levels, then a few years later are real high flyers. A levels are just a measure of academic development not achievement.

Not an MA, he did an Mres

Of course, gender studies graduates is what we need - said no one ever. While we recruit for engineers, doctors and IT professionals form abroad

^This pretty much sums up the thread

@mustlovegin

Of course, gender studies graduates is what we need - said no one ever. While we recruit for engineers, doctors and IT professionals form abroad

^This pretty much sums up the thread

No. This is a really ill informed, ridiculous comment.

I think what's flying over some people's heads is that with some degrees the skills you acquire are just as valuable and useful as the content itself. I don't know the modules in gender studies, but I'd guess it involved history, sociology, critical thinking, extrapolating and evaluating data, research etc- highly valued in some sectors and not actually that different to history and other humanities degrees.

Exactly fetarabbit

Plus, Gender studies as a subject doesn't exist as an undergraduate course - the only two courses in the uk which mention gender is a politics and gender course which is primarily a politics and social science degree and English literature with gender.
Are people really arguing that politics, social sciences and English literature are useless subjects??

Spinsforgin.

It would appear so. I think all subjects have equal merit. That’s what makes for an interesting and diverse world. And people can study for the love of studying. If l had the cash, I’d do a different degree every 3 years. I like learning. Degrees l would choose would be

History, Sociology, Grsphic Design, Media Stidies, Politics, more history, more history.

I hate STEM subjects tbh. But don’t think they have any advantage or merit over any other degrees. Not keen on red brick snobbery either.

Not keen on red brick snobbery either.
Me neither. They aren't always the best for all subjects.

Most trades people earn more than me with my 2 degrees. Wish i'd trained as a plumber tbh.

I think the male dominated nature of the trades is off putting for women. I considered plumbing but just really didn't want to apprentice with a lone man and in a sole trader situation where there was no clear structure. IMHO routes into the trades need to change.

I don’t solely blame Blair but i totally agree that it’s ridiculous that university (and the accompanying huge debt) is encouraged while vocational options - which can pay well in the long run- seem severely limited and somehow not the preferred choice

I am not sure I would encourage my sons to go to uni nowadays unless they were focussed on a career plan that needed it (medicine, law etc)

@malificent7

Most trades people earn more than me with my 2 degrees. Wish i'd trained as a plumber tbh.

Do you want be a plumber? Is that a job you'd enjoy? My friend is a plumber and earns more than me (I'm a university academic) but I wouldn't trade jobs.

Although, there has been a trend in schools to push university as the best option but that is changing slowly. Schools now have a legal duty to ensure all options are presented equally.

One of the things the government could do is make degree apprenticeships less bureaucratic. I'd love to offer my course as a degree apprenticeship but I just can't make it work financially due to all the bureaucratic hoops we have to jump through.

Tbh myideal job would be pottering about at home but sadly it's not very well paid!

with some degrees the skills you acquire are just as valuable and useful as the content itself

This is ridiculous. If you are going to spend 3+ years of your life studying something, it had better be something useful, not made-up, bogus, pointless theories

@mustlovegin

with some degrees the skills you acquire are just as valuable and useful as the content itself

This is ridiculous. If you are going to spend 3+ years of your life studying something, it had better be something useful, not made-up, bogus, pointless theories

Perhaps if you had studied something along those lines your critical thinking would be at a higher level.

The point is that shortage of certain types of skills hampers our economy. So those should be subsidized more than degrees which we have a glut of graduates.

This is ridiculous. If you are going to spend 3+ years of your life studying something, it had better be something useful, not made-up, bogus, pointless theories

Made up, bogus, pointless theories....... really? I don't think you understand the purpose of universities.

Theories are important. They help us understand the world around us, they help us predict events and can help us challenge and change things for the better.
Everything we do is underpinned by theory. Theories that have been tested over and over again.

@Namenic

The point is that shortage of certain types of skills hampers our economy. So those should be subsidized more than degrees which we have a glut of graduates.

Its a bigger issue than that though. Healthcare courses for example are competitive and always more applicants than places- but they can't increase numbers until there's a training infrastructure expanded in hospitals and other settings. Midwives for example, there is a huge shortage and to get onto the course is highly, highly competitive; but there aren't the staff/placements available on placement to facilitate more students. The biggest issue (and with teaching) is also people leaving within the first few years in high numbers; training more doesn't solve the issue of retention etc its only part of a puzzle.

Subjects like IT are fast moving and vast. A degree is absolutely useful and the majority will go on to have successful careers, but it's not always the most suitable route- I think higher paying apprenticeships etc are better. Again, the shortage isn't necessarily down to degrees, and increasing or encouraging degrees in certain subjects isn't necessarily the answer.