to blame Tony Blair for the lack of skilled workforce?

[dunkaccino]

In the 1980's only 15% of school leavers went into higher education leaving a good lot of people to become tradesmen/HGV drivers/butchers etc. Tony Blair decided in 1999 that 50% going to University was a great aim, which was finally achieved in 2019.

Now we have a lack of everyone useful - electricians, carpenters, fitters, engineers, butchers, drivers - coupled with a multitude of unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone.

Covid & brexit have undeniably both played a part, but AIBU to think that Blairs idea was basically a bit shit and has left us lacking in the skilled workforce needed to run the country?

@NotPersephone

I think it's a bit late to blame Blair, but I do think that the quality of universities (even RG ones) has declined in line with their expnasion. I recruit graduates and on paper they have better CV's than me or a typical peer when I was their age. Clutches of A's, first class degrees, etc. It is very difficult to accept that the barely-able-to-write newbie who requires constant supervision is a first class law graduate who won a prize for his acumen.

University education is now a racket. I'd rather spend the money setting DS up in business or a trade, even though DH and I are educated to postgrad/PhD level ourselves.

I was surprised at the standard of graduates back in the 90s, so hate to think what it's like now if they're getting worse.

I became responsible for recruitment (trainee accountants) in the early 90's and took on a couple of graduates who'd done accounting degrees, thinking they'd be able to "hit the ground running" and would be quicker to train and quicker to pass their professional exams if they'd already done accounting to degree level. But I was bitterly disappointed, not with them as people, as they were both hard workers and quick to learn, but I really couldn't see anything to demonstrate they'd had 3 years studying accounting and wasn't impressed with their literacy/numeracy either as they couldn't draft a business letter, didn't even know how many days in each month (they'd happily draft a balance sheet as at 31 April!).

They couldn't do double entry book-keeping, couldn't prepare a set of accounts, hadn't a clue about VAT or payroll processes, so were really no better than graduates with non relevant degrees who I took on in later years. I found it very surprising (and disappointing) that an accounting graduate knew so little about accounting. I did discover that they were well versed in international accounting standards, accountancy ethics etc, i.e. the academic side, but that was pretty irrelevant for day to day accountancy work.

And because of the A-level grading in the past couple of years, more students got the entry grades.

@user1497207191

I agree. We need to work backwards from the job market. If 25% of jobs "need" a degree, then we should be aiming for roughly 25% of school leavers going to Uni, preferably for relevant degree courses appropriate for the job market.

Of course there also needs to be flexibility & wriggle room, for those who want to go to Uni solely for academic research/interest and those who haven't a clue what job they want (as long as they'll likely end up in a job requiring a degree).

What we've ended up with by using Blair's arbitrary 50% is a major mis-match between the job market and the applicants/unemployed.

Because there are so many graduates, a lot of employers lazily require any degree simply as a means of reducing the number of applicants, whether a degree is needed or not. That excludes huge numbers of people who are able and probably more suited to the job.

Excellent post. ^ Totally agree.

@NotPersephone

I think it's a bit late to blame Blair, but I do think that the quality of universities (even RG ones) has declined in line with their expansion. I recruit graduates and on paper they have better CV's than me or a typical peer when I was their age.

Clutches of A's, first class degrees, etc. It is very difficult to accept that the barely-able-to-write newbie who requires constant supervision is a first class law graduate who won a prize for his acumen..

University education is now a racket. I'd rather spend the money setting DS up in business or a trade, even though DH and I are educated to postgrad/PhD level ourselves.

Agree with this, as sad as it is to admit it's true.

My DD went to uni and left 6 years ago. She is now around 50K in debt, and in a job - working next to 2 people on the same salary as her. And these 2 people (on the same salary/pay grade/level as DD is,) not only didn't go to uni, but they also failed their A levels, but they started an apprenticeship at 18.

They have the same career opportunities as DD, but without the £50K debt. The only difference is that DD had the 'university experience.' How lovely. Shame she had to get £50K into debt to bloody get it.

I didn't actually want her to go tbh, as I felt she didn't need to, and I was REALLY worried about all the debt she would accrue. Not bragging, but she is academic and quick and always did well at school, and she 'suited' uni. But she was umming and ahhing about going right up to a couple of months before, as she had the chance of a couple of apprenticeships.

Then because a couple of her close mates went to uni, she decided to go. She enjoyed it, and got a decent grade (2:1) but I wish she hadn't gone because she is in so much debt now, and in no better a job than some people who didn't go to uni.

And yes it is a racket now. So SO expensive, and for what?

It is intensely annoying as has been said, that some employers say you must have a degree for basic admin jobs now, to filter out the ones who never went to uni. Even though they may be best for the job.

@ILoveShula

Medicine is over-subscribed because the medical schools have few places. The UK has a shortage of doctors.

It's a shame, then, that the BMA voted to restrict the number of medical school places and agreed to a complete ban on new medical schools.

www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748

One of the reasons being "allowing too many new doctors into the market would risk devaluing the profession".

That was in 2008. Given it takes a decade or so to fully train a GP, had they not rejected new places and new medical schools, we'd today be seeing higher numbers of newly qualified doctors joining GP practices.

I’ve advised my DD not to go to university, but seek a trade. If I had done the same I’d be earning twice what I am now, and be my own boss. Instead I’m stuck in a senior Admin role which, though well paid, is mundane.

Alas, late on in life and with arthritis setting in, I have discovered an aptitude for plumbing. Wish I’d tried it earlier.

But the expectation that university is the only acceptable route for middle class kids did me no favours at all.

@Worldgonecrazy

I’ve advised my DD not to go to university, but seek a trade. If I had done the same I’d be earning twice what I am now, and be my own boss. Instead I’m stuck in a senior Admin role which, though well paid, is mundane.

Alas, late on in life and with arthritis setting in, I have discovered an aptitude for plumbing. Wish I’d tried it earlier.

But the expectation that university is the only acceptable route for middle class kids did me no favours at all.

Hope your DD listens to you!

As I - and many others have said - getting a degree/going to uni used to be great, and a wonderful way to guarantee a great career and a better future than you would have without it. I feel now, (not in ALL cases, but in many cases,) that the bloody degree isn't worth the paper it's written on.

ALSO of course, you NOW end up in SHITLOADS of bastard debt! 10s of 1000s. It IS a racket IMO. Some people I know who left this past 4 to 7 years, say they paid sooo much money, are now £45K to £55K in debt, and really got very VERY little tutor time at uni. It was not worth the money for many. Many MANY young people feel ripped off now.

This. Get into £50k of debt to do a job that only needed “O” levels when I left school - what an incredible con. I think the tide’s turning and young people are beginning to realise they’re being conned. Particularly when they see how well trades people are paid. It’s shocking the way 21st century society looks down on its most useful and essential members.

Yup! I saw the con for exactly what it was and left school the minute I turned 16 for an apprenticeship.

I still remember getting pulled into the headmaster's office and asked why a bright thing like me wasn't staying on and heading to uni.

Buuuuut I bought my first house at 22 as a single mother. At 30 I'm still the only one of my high school friendship group on the property ladder -- most of them still live with their parents and work in admin type roles. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not enough these days if you don't come from money (or marry a tradesman in your 20s, which nobody does these days).

I'll be advising my girls in a few years to avoid uni like the plague and learn SKILLS. Hard, purchasable, in demand skills. I've already told them that if you have skills, you can always make money. The better your skills, the more you can make money on your own terms. Fuck working 40 hours a week to line someone else's pockets and be thrown the scraps! The youngest is very arty and creative, so I'm slowly teaching her how to do things in Photoshop. I'd encourage anyone to do the same. Coding. Design. Writing. Laying flooring or putting up wallpaper. Whatever. If they really want to go to uni I'll still support them, but I'd also encourage them to have things on the side too.

I don't even do the trade as my bread and butter anymore, but it opened doors for me and allowed me to start putting fingers in lots of pies which I think is the way the world of work is going. The pandemic has only increased the momentum. People are waking up to the fact the whole thing is one massive racket and we're not the ones benefiting from it.

User1497207191 your post at 11.20 is absolutely on the money - when less than 10% of people went to university, there were still many intelligent, focused, motivated young people who went into trades, got jobs in banks, insurance and accounting firms who learned 'on the job' with perhaps day release to college to gain qualifications. Not any more.

Thanks for your posts User1497207191

@bogeythefungusman

User1497207191 your post at 11.20 is absolutely on the money - when less than 10% of people went to university, there were still many intelligent, focused, motivated young people who went into trades, got jobs in banks, insurance and accounting firms who learned 'on the job' with perhaps day release to college to gain qualifications. Not any more.

Yes, it was "on the job" and evening classes that enabled me to become a qualified accountant without going to Uni.

Unfortunately, despite the qualification being widely accepted as equivalent to a masters degree, I was finding doors closed to me as I progressed through my career as more and more employers started citing being a "graduate" as a requirement for managerial/senior jobs. Because I'd done my professional qualifications outside the Uni system, I wasn't a "graduate" as such, so was excluded.

@bogeythefungusman

User1497207191 your post at 11.20 is absolutely on the money - when less than 10% of people went to university, there were still many intelligent, focused, motivated young people who went into trades, got jobs in banks, insurance and accounting firms who learned 'on the job' with perhaps day release to college to gain qualifications. Not any more.

Yep this! ^

@dunkaccino - you're right. It's about time the UK went back to the old good system, where people knew their place and didn't try to rise above their station.

This. Get into £50k of debt to do a job that only needed “O” levels when I left school - what an incredible con. I think the tide’s turning and young people are beginning to realise they’re being conned. Particularly when they see how well trades people are paid. It’s shocking the way 21st century society looks down on its most useful and essential members.

Don't know who said this, (sorry, it was quoted by another poster without the name,) but I totally agree.

@LittleDandelionClock

This. Get into £50k of debt to do a job that only needed “O” levels when I left school - what an incredible con. I think the tide’s turning and young people are beginning to realise they’re being conned. Particularly when they see how well trades people are paid. It’s shocking the way 21st century society looks down on its most useful and essential members.

Don't know who said this, (sorry, it was quoted by another poster without the name,) but I totally agree.

It was me 😊

Eerie have you RTFT?

@mustlovegin ATP? TMR.

The problem is what a lot of people are considering as Mickey Mouse degrees such as media studies are actually far more useful than the likes of classics (unless you are rich and have connections, then it may just land you a job in Downing Street).

Years ago you wouldn’t see a degree in HR for example, but plenty of people who had for example studied English would go after jobs in this field. Now people are getting degrees in this so they are obviously getting the jobs, so where do people who studied English go? Does this mean we should stop letting people study English at Uni?

I have a degree in Politics and History. At uni i was not able to do unpaid/low paid internships in the summer, I had to work to get as much money as possible. So when I left a lot of jobs were unavailable to me as I did not have experience. After 3 horrible sales jobs, I got an apprenticeship in telecommunications. I worked alongside people with different backgrounds, barely anyone has a degree. However, it has stood in me in good stead. I have progressed faster than a lot of my colleagues due to skills i learned in my degree.

Another thing is people don’t seem to realise how hard it is to get into a trade, a lot of people I know have got an apprenticeship due to family or friends. So unless you have those connections it is extremely hard to get an apprenticeship as some are much more competitive than uni courses.

Yes we do get ‘the uni experience’ and whilst it is fun it also gives us life experience. At 21 I had graduated uni and had lived away from home for 4 years. At 21 my brother who did an apprenticeship still stays at home and has only just become aware that council tax is a thing.

I would take an educated society over an uneducated society any day. Unfortunately there is a huge element of snobbery from people who regard a tradesman as uneducated. For what it’s what it’s worth my partner has a masters degree and earns over 50k, and he can’t even put a shelf up. More practical skills in the curriculum wouldn’t go amiss!

@pointythings

We live in a world where the media have immense power and where the use of communication intersecting with technology drives so much of what is going on. Anyone who thinks studying these phenomena is doing a Mickey Mouse degree is frankly a Muppet. Media and communication is one of the powers in the age we live in.

What’s that got to do with getting a degree in media studies? You can make up degrees for almost anything. Doesn’t mean it’s needed to be successful.

[quote Simonjt]@sst1234 You are choosing to purposely misunderstand. So without his degree, how do you propose he would have gained a job that required a degree? Without said job he wouldn’t have been able to gain skills in his area of employment, he also wouldn’t have been able to gain contacts or business links, the links who switched over to his business very quickly enabling him to employ over 100 people in the first year of his business.[/quote]
And I think you are conflating correlation with causation.

[quote EerieSilence]@dunkaccino - you're right. It's about time the UK went back to the old good system, where people knew their place and didn't try to rise above their station.[/quote]
And this perfectly illustrates (again) the problem. You seem to think that a degree is somehow 'above' a trade, you are the problem.

@dunkaccino - that's complete bollocks.
I believe that education and the possibility of higher education should be available to everybody.
That doesn't make the trade and people working in trade less intelligent or below people with higher education. But I'm not blind to the Tory brainwashing going on here.
I can't imagine Boris Johnson's or Reese-Mogg's children starting an apprenticeship as a plumber or HGV driver - can you? Do you think this will end up with children of peers and Tory elite going for trade to be an example? I would like to see that.
No, this will end up with higher education being once again available to those who can afford it. BJ's kids will go to Eton and study classical studies or something completely useless, only to rise through the ranks of the Tory Party based on their family name while the plumber's son will not be able to study medicine or nuclear physics even if they wanted to.
Please, let's see through the demagogy of the Daily Mail's articles on how Blair etc. are to blame for the lack of tradesmen because they let rubble study whatever they wanted. They don't really believe plumbers are their equal. They believe that they people shouldn't cross the limitations of their own class.