to blame Tony Blair for the lack of skilled workforce?

[dunkaccino]

In the 1980's only 15% of school leavers went into higher education leaving a good lot of people to become tradesmen/HGV drivers/butchers etc. Tony Blair decided in 1999 that 50% going to University was a great aim, which was finally achieved in 2019.

Now we have a lack of everyone useful - electricians, carpenters, fitters, engineers, butchers, drivers - coupled with a multitude of unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone.

Covid & brexit have undeniably both played a part, but AIBU to think that Blairs idea was basically a bit shit and has left us lacking in the skilled workforce needed to run the country?

One of the major problems is that training and funding training has not developed to match the realities of the job market now.

It needs to be easier and less risky for people to retrain.

The job for life isn't really a thing anymore. If someone finds themselves in an oversaturated industry or with out of date qualifications or unable to physically do the job they originally trained for it is really difficult for them to retrain into these shortage areas.

Someone on the dole is not in a position to spend thousands training to become a lorry driver. Funding is not available for adults to do many vocational qualifications. Once in full time education your entitlement to benefits changes but people have homes and families to support.

Make it easier for those with appropriate skills and aptitude to retrain into shortage areas rather than having people only able to do unskilled work.

Cancunot raises a good point about the way in which a university education equips you with skills that stay with you for life. My degree isn't related to the job I do right now, but it has equipped me with skills I can use in any field - and I have done just that.

We are also rather drifting away from the central question: why are we holding Tony Blair personally responsible for our current situation when we have had a government of a different colour for almost 11 years now - and they've done nothing to address it? It's getting old.

From a Guardian article:

Ross Hemsworth is an HGV1 driver and musician, and said that while there was some help for the haulage industry in the budget, there was not a lot for individual drivers like him.

Hemsworth, 64, a married father-of-four, operates as a driver for hire – he has his own limited company which he has had since 2018. Based in Somerset, he has been an HGV1 driver since the early 1990s and wanted more money spent on “levelling up” in the south-west, particularly when it came to public transport.

Asked how he was managing financially, he said: “Scraping by is probably the best term. We’re keeping the bills paid, but we’re not in the position we could be in or should be in.”

Hemsworth said that while there had been reports about the big bonuses that some companies were offering lorry drivers, these were “usually tied into a lot of small print” that did not get reported – for example, an individual might have to work for the company for at least a year or they claw it back, or the bonuses can be withdrawn under various scenarios.

For HGV1 work, “you’d be lucky to get £10 to £12 an hour in Somerset … Most drivers I know down here are taking home, after deductions, £450 to £550 a week, which for many people isn’t enough to live on. This is another reason why drivers are leaving the business.”

I can imagine its similar for a lot of tradesmen (esp given that you have to pay for materials) and you are essentially running your own small business. There is a lot of press about the successful plumber who earns £200k but not much about the fine print. In a normal job, the pay may not look great but you will not incur any expenses from it other than the usual commuting/clothes/lunch and you will get redundancy/sick leave. I don't blame young people for choosing a 'safe' salaried job given that we are the generation that came of age during the '08 recession and have been profiled to be more risk averse.

@VladmirsPoutine

So if everyone just knew their place everything would have been fine. It seems to me the multiples of people with either a PPE or Classics degree from Oxford haven't exactly done a sterling job of running the country.

It's society's perception of success that needs to change. It saddens me that we only seem to value academia in this country.

You can be incredibly talented and knowledgeable without a degree. University does not suit everyone's learning ability - this does make them less in anyway and shame on those who think it does. Just like I've met many degree educated people who have lacked other skills.

We can all valuably contribute to the society we live in.

@EerieSilence, some of Boris Johnson's children are now adults, and some are girls, so won't be or weren't at Eton. No idea about JR-M's children.

Yes we do get ‘the uni experience’ and whilst it is fun it also gives us life experience. At 21 I had graduated uni and had lived away from home for 4 years. At 21 my brother who did an apprenticeship still stays at home and has only just become aware that council tax is a thing.

I would take an educated society over an uneducated society any day. Unfortunately there is a huge element of snobbery from people who regard a tradesman as uneducated. For what it’s what it’s worth my partner has a masters degree and earns over 50k, and he can’t even put a shelf up. More practical skills in the curriculum wouldn’t go amiss!

Its possible to get life experience without going to uni. I didn't go but most of my peers did. I did an apprenticeship (and had a pt job) and moved out of home when I was 22, just after most of my friends who went to uni , had moved back in with their parents. That was over 20 years ago but a work colleagues DD started an apprenticeship straight from school and was living in a shared house at 17.

A lot of skills are talents and aptitudes for things rather than "learning ". My DH is about the least academic person you could meet. He left school with minimal o levels. He is artistic and practical but hopeless at reading instructions or filling in forms. He can lay a floor, or fix a leaking tap or put up shelves - arguably just as useful as some more "professional" jobs (although he doesn't do any of that for a living)

@bogeythefungusman

User1497207191 your post at 11.20 is absolutely on the money - when less than 10% of people went to university, there were still many intelligent, focused, motivated young people who went into trades, got jobs in banks, insurance and accounting firms who learned 'on the job' with perhaps day release to college to gain qualifications. Not any more.

Yes so much better but TB turned the universities into businesses with a bums on seats approach

The root of the problem has been the commodification of education*. It's now something which has to be sold so all the middlemen can extract the value out of it before it finally gets delivered to the student.

*and, in wider society, the commodification of everything

You're not wrong but I think its a cultural thing too. Trades and lorry driving have been valued less than officey, smart suit type jobs for too long.

I remember having a great sales job, nice clothes and business trips and my friend (double qualified, plumber and electrician) thought my job was amazing. One night we compared wages and he did less hours and got the same wage, plus he did cash in hand on the side - he was so much better off than I was. Granted he spent some days dealing with busted soil pipes but he also spent a lot of time running electrics through newly built warehouses etc. and he took a lot less crap from clients. He had a few sets of overalls, company van and car, could easily afford to eat lunch out everyday. Didn't have to live in a city centre with expensive housing. He realised actually my job was a bit bollocks and I wished I'd got into plumbing or electrical!

I'd never encourage my DS to see Uni as a goal within itself. Fair enough if he has a clear plan but otherwise I'm going to be encouraging an apprenticeship. He can get paid by his firm to do a degree if he needs one.

I teach apprentices and University students. I often see uni kids that have happily done apprenticeships and are sponsored to do a degree or even packed in their job to do a degree. They are streets ahead of the kids that have no work experience. I never see an apprentice that I think 'this isn't for you, you should be at uni doing philosophy!'

unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone.

Could you define a Mickey Mouse degree please?

@SpinsForGin

unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone.

Could you define a Mickey Mouse degree please?

Yes this intriges me too. I'm assuming people think of art related subjects or perhaps media studies, but there is a big market for these professions and networking at university alongside the degree is very useful. People can can go on to do grad schemes, PGCEs and all sorts of postgraduate courses with them. Everything we look at has been designed and created by someone after all, the media is a huge industry, and many people go on to have successful and fulfilling careers.

Yes, what is a Mickey Mouse degree?

Because our design graduates are recognised as the best in the world. They are frequently ‘exported’ abroad.But maybe only to Disneyland eh?🙄

Granted he spent some days dealing with busted soil pipes

DF used to say "The job may be dirty, but the money is clean".

Mickey Mouse degrees are ones that do not lead to a job. They might be in subjects like Media Studies, Communication, Philosophy ...

If I was recruiting I would look at the degree, the university, and experience.

I work in a niche area and there is a degree and masters degree for the work but the grads I've worked with were clueless.

Isn't Media studies good for journalism or tv jobs though

Mickey Mouse degrees are ones that do not lead to a job. They might be in subjects like Media Studies, Communication, Philosophy ...

I wouldn't slag particular degrees, but there are subjects for which there is very little marketability (history), or the market is way too competititve (arts).

@MerryChristmasToYou

Mickey Mouse degrees are ones that do not lead to a job. They might be in subjects like Media Studies, Communication, Philosophy ...

If I was recruiting I would look at the degree, the university, and experience.

I work in a niche area and there is a degree and masters degree for the work but the grads I've worked with were clueless.

Any degree is valuable. I loathe this attitude about 'useless' degrees just because they're not obviously vocational.

I wouldn't slag off Philosophy from a decent university.

Media Studies look at the syllabus for it if you like. I know someone with a Media Studies degree and they said it was a waste of time.

If you spend all that money and effort doing a degree, would you want to find yourself in a poorly paid job at the end while your peers with more employable degrees are starting work on £30K?

I referred to what I do and the 'MCTYjobbing' degree doesn't teach you to do the job, and neither does the masters. I'd probably prefer someone with aptitude, experience, transferrable skills and an interest in the area.

I've worked with MCTYjobbers who do not have a degree or have a degree in a different but related area.

I'd probably not recruit someone with a Media Studies degree because I'd wonder why someone had chosen to study a degree with a poor reputation.

Another complaint I have is that people don't realise that MCTYjobbing is a niche area. I've had managers recruiting their spouse or child to 'help' me, and they end up being next to useless, as they have virtually no useful skills.

Ds has a Masters in Digital Journalism. He’s worked for some of the top U.K. news companies ( and still does) so not a MM qualification.

I

And I’d always be interested in someone with a media studies degree. If they are interested in media, they must have some sort of interest in communicating with people.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow, I'm interested in media and in people, but who isn't?

Digital Journalism might not be MM.

No it isn’t. Dan Walker from Breakfast Time did the same MA.

But some will say it’s a MM course.

Hang on a minute. Lots of criticism of Mickey Mouse degrees (ps. I know plenty of people in comms who pull in six figure salaries) and a call for traditional trades and more "working class" jobs but I'll take these opinions -"and options with a pinch of salt until I actually see kids going to eton heading off at 18 as an electrician's apprentice.

Until it's good enough for them, it's not the only option for my kid. This country is deeply, deeply inadequate in equality and social mobility. Having worked in big four consultancy and blue chip companies I had more in common with international colleagues than the privately educated types. All lovely, all talented but all completely ignorant of life from a working class, comp background.

There really is a mentality of knowing your place and slagging off anyone who wants change. It boils my piss to think there might be a kid in an inner city classroom with English as a second language with the cure for cancer in their head and the worlds top sparky at eton and neither will fulfil their potential. And twats will just go on sniping at anyone who wants to try higher education or a different life to the one they were born into.

Disclaimer: I'm now solidly middle class but my upbringing was working class. Sometimes I just wish I'd not bothered with education and a career and married a nice, local bloke who could fix things. So many, unseen, unexpected barriers to "get on" just because of where I started.