Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

And I had a workaholic father and a mother who did absolutely everything on the domestic front. I think it was bad for us children, bad for my mother and bad for my father. That's just my personal experience of being in that kind of family set up and I know it's not universal. But I know my father has a lot of regrets and my mother has a lot of resentment.

Maybe my kids will be on the internet in 20 years complaining about their horrible nursery, though!

Let me get this straight? The fact that the majority of children are in some form of childcare in Sweden is what is "forcing" the parents of other children, who don't want them in childcare, to put them in as otherwise they'd have no one to play with? That this societal "norm" is a form of coercion?

FWIW (anecdotal, I know ) I went back to work FT when ds was 4 months old (that was the maximum back then that you could get and be guaranteed your old job back). This meant that he was in at the child minder (literally the house next door: more like a mini nursery as she ran it with her mum and her MIL) for 45 hours a week. He went in happy and he came home happy. I still managed to breast feed him until he was 13 months old (expressed during the day/on business trips). He was there full time until just before he turned 4 when he started going to a council run nursery for half the day (term time only) and then back to the childminder, up until he started school the following year (just before he turned 5).

I chose to go back to work and have no regrets. I was fortunate that we could afford it (our salaries were always seen as a joint asset). Dh, when ds was 3, took a redundancy package and then worked on a few consultancy projects. His flexibility helped once ds was half days at the nursery as the child minder didn't do pick-ups so we had to deliver him.

If I'd had another child (unfortunately had two early miscarriages) I'd have kept his childcare going while I had a newborn, all the better to bond with the new baby.

I'd have loved the flexibility offered by low cost, good quality child care but more importantly the shared and lengthy parental leave - such as that available in Sweden. And I'd have been happy to pay higher taxes to achieve that for all.

For the record: ds is 21 now, away at Uni, well adjusted, happy and confident - and doesn't show any signs of separation anxiety

[quote BettyCarver]@sw1v so what you're saying reinforces my previous point: that we all make life choices. We all have to operate within parameters; they aren't the same for all of us, but the fact is, we all have agency over our lives.

You could have had fewer children which would mean being a WOHP would be more affordable. You could have partnered a man with different views about parenting.

There is no right or wrong here, but you seem to want there to be.

To give an example: I love children. I wanted at least two children. The tipping point for us was 3. If we'd had 4, I wouldn't have been able to afford to work. I love children but I also do a valuable job, I went to university, I trained for a profession and I didn't want to give it all up. So, we stopped at 3 children. If I'd had 4, it would be very disingenuous of me to be sitting here now, bemoaning that I hadn't had a career because I could afford the childcare. Other posters would quite rightly tell me I'd made a choice to prioritise quantity of children over being able to continue in my profession.

It's also important to recognise that every decision we make, influences subsequent decisions. If I'd stopped working and become a SAHM after dc1, I highly doubt I would have decided to return to work after dc2, and certainly not after dc3, when the childcare bill equated to my take home pay. But because I returned after dc1 (even though it was tough, with a 12 week old baby) I didn't even question giving up my career after dc2 and 3. I'd come this far, I was confident in my ability to combine working with parenting (and breastfeeding!) and it therefore made carrying on working, even with the huge childcare bill, completely worth it for me.

It seems that you have made various life decisions (having 4 children, wanting a husband who is sole earner) but are now trying to pick holes in other ways of doing things. It's all quite odd! You've got the relationship you bought into. What's the gripe? [/quote]
Spot on.

@DressedUpAtAnIvy

Where did you read this, Xenophobia Today?

I am from the UK living in rural Sweden and I am desperate to back to the UK. The local schools are dire not a patch on the outstanding rated school my children attended in London.

Sweden doesn't force children into childcare but not working is frowned upon. Moving here I decided to take a couple of years off (able to support myself not claiming) to learn the language and settle the children (non Swedish speaking at the time). I have lost count at the amount of time I have been asked 'so what do you do all day' including the children's teacher and a Surgeon prior to surgery and not in a jokey way. As a society, in general it's very judgemental and suspicious.

People claiming asylum and benefits are forced to put their children into childcare. After the age of one, in order not to have their benefits capped they have to attend the SFI (immigrants courses to learn Swedish and about Swedish culture). A register is taken and if they don't attend their money capped. The SFI course was optional for me as I wasn't claiming.

@Catflapkitkat Where are you getting that information about asylum seekers and people on benefits being forced to put their children into preschool? Because i’m certain that is absolutely not true at all.

I was on the course SFI (Swedish for Immigrants) in Jåmtland mid Sweden. We were about five Europeans, two Thai (married to Swedes and not forced to attend). The rest of the people on the course were refugees or in the process of claiming refugee status. At that time mainly form Somalia and Eritrea, four were from Uganda. They got free dagis (nursery) places and had to sign a register every day that had attended or their money would get capped. I was told by one of the course leaders it was to encourage people to integrate (especially the women) with the end aim of getting them into work.

If you want to be a SAHM don't move to Sweden. It's not something women do here. It's not understood as a life choice. I was a SAHM before we were transferred here. I loved it, lots of playdates with other parents. Lots of places to take small kids. My children were with other kids everyday. I loved having that time with them.
I had read and researched that Sweden was a great place for families, great childcare, so I was exited to move.
Sweden doesn't do stay at home parenting. It was the hardest time of my life. Back then there was one indoor play area for kids. ALL the other kids their age were in daycare. I eventually put them in daycare way earlier than I planned, only so they could have friends to play with. It was a sad and depressing time for me as it was so lonely.
I was definitely made to feel I was in the wrong regarding my parenting decision.
You have you child, stay home for the allocated time then go back to work. Job done.
No, no one is forced to put their babies/children in the system it's just implied that you will.

@Catflapkitkat Fine, but that doesn’t mean that what you wrote as a general statement is true, though, and it’s this kind of half truth sweeping statement that spreads so easily and leads to ideas like the one that started this thread in the first place. Taking part in the Job Centre’s establishment programme is voluntary for the majority of asylum seekers, apart from a specific group who have the obligation to do supplementary education in order to bring them closer to the job market. If you’re on that programme you can still go on parental leave full or part time. If you go full time then you can rejoin the course as long as no more than 36 months have passed since you got your PN. So yeah, IF you are in the group who is obliged to take the education programme and IF you had a child and went on full time leave within six months of getting your PN, then under those circumstances you probably would have to put your child in preschool when they turn one in order to be able to continue on the course and therefore continue to get the financial support. But that is a far cry from saying it is a blanket policy, it just isn’t. There are lots and lots of mothers who are home with their children much longer and the government recently invested a lot of money into initiatives to allow them to combine language learning with parental leave in a way that is also suitable for the needs of the child. Admittedly, one of the goals is this is to eventually bring these mothers closer to the job market and encourage them to enrol their children in preschool, but no-one is forced to do anything, and the people working on these programmes are really fantastic at supporting the families in a way that works for them.

Thatcantberight

“If you want to be a SAHM don't move to Sweden. It's not something women do here. It's not understood as a life choice. I was a SAHM before we were transferred here. I loved it, lots of playdates with other parents. Lots of places to take small kids. My children were with other kids everyday. I loved having that time with them.
I had read and researched that Sweden was a great place for families, great childcare, so I was exited to move.
Sweden doesn't do stay at home parenting. It was the hardest time of my life. Back then there was one indoor play area for kids. ALL the other kids their age were in daycare. I eventually put them in daycare way earlier than I planned, only so they could have friends to play with. It was a sad and depressing time for me as it was so lonely.
I was definitely made to feel I was in the wrong regarding my parenting decision.
You have you child, stay home for the allocated time then go back to work. Job done.
No, no one is forced to put their babies/children in the system it's just implied that you will.”

This is exactly what I mean and why Swedish society wouldn’t suit me (and many others).

Not in Sweden but a country with a similar state-supported system. Originally from the UK and when I hear from friends in the UK about childcare fees I'm really grateful for what I have.

The pros
45 hours of childcare a week for ~250 quid a month.
(Plus an extra ~100 quid a month because we chose a setting with extras such as day trips and special activities that need supplies, like baking, gardening etc.)
Payments are income based, so if you earn less you pay less. My friend on a lower income pays ~50 quid a month for the same hours.
Guaranteed place from the age of 3 but available from 4 months old if you find your own setting (still subsidized)
Can opt for a childminder instead if you prefer, still subsidized at same rate
Shared parental leave paid at almost 70 percent for an entire year - i split mine 50 percent with dh so we could both keep our jobs and both worked part time after dd was born
Parental leave mostly paid by the state and so employers don't try to screw you out of your job/pay just because you are pregnant
Much better post natal care with a midwife of your choice who will visit you daily (if you choose) at your home to support with breastfeeding etc or just even hold your baby while you take a shower. Much higher breastfeeding rates and acceptance in society
Balanced parenthood: Just take a walk to a playground around 5pm, whatever the weather, and it's full of mums AND dads with their little ones, probably more dads than mums if you counted, and amazing outdoor facilities for kids (darkness doesn't mean locking yourself in at home)

Cons
It's hard to "choose" your childcare setting and you need to get on the list while pregnant, usually have to start in August because places become available as children leave childcare and go into school in September. If you don't organize well ahead, you get whatever is left, and it might not be the closest/most ideal choice (we just got lucky)
Less pandering to parents. Your child has to fit into the routine and that's that.
Kids under one bundled together with 6 year olds. Lots of time outside - I once came to pick up my dd at age 1 and she was just crawling around in the snow in the garden (in a big snow suit) while other kids were just running around. It didn't kill her though.
Childcare setting chooses its own holidays and you have to plan around them (fees don't stop during holiday closures). BUT we did receive reimbursement for almost the entire 2020 even though our childcare remained open for key workers and we did send our child.
Parents are expected to help out with things like maintaining the garden, repairs, spring cleaning - and we just get sent a rota to go on a Saturday morning and it messes with our plans

Dunno if this is interesting but thought I'd share my experience after reading through some of the comments.

“Sweden doesn't force children into childcare but not working is frowned upon. Moving here I decided to take a couple of years off (able to support myself not claiming) to learn the language and settle the children (non Swedish speaking at the time). I have lost count at the amount of time I have been asked 'so what do you do all day' including the children's teacher and a Surgeon prior to surgery and not in a jokey way. As a society, in general it's very judgemental and suspicious.”

Also this ^. It’s subtle, but insidious and annoying. Nobody has ever asked me this type of question. It’s nobody’s business!

We live in central London. DT’s are now 22 but everyone in our friendship group went back to full time work after six months maternity leave (normal period of time then). We had careers which wouldn’t be there if we stayed off longer. All of DT’s reception class (international school) had two full time working parents. Doesn’t sound any different from how you are portrayed Sweden.

@sw1v

“Sweden doesn't force children into childcare but not working is frowned upon. Moving here I decided to take a couple of years off (able to support myself not claiming) to learn the language and settle the children (non Swedish speaking at the time). I have lost count at the amount of time I have been asked 'so what do you do all day' including the children's teacher and a Surgeon prior to surgery and not in a jokey way. As a society, in general it's very judgemental and suspicious.”

Also this ^. It’s subtle, but insidious and annoying. Nobody has ever asked me this type of question. It’s nobody’s business!

You seem very unsettled by anyone questioning your choices — why do you need to live in an echo chamber of women who have made a similar choice not to work? Why would it bother you so much to be a cultural outlier?

I live in SW London and at the prep school age (ie 4-11), I would say the vast majority of mums are SAHMs. This is my direct experience across 3 schools. Maybe 7 out of 10 mums are SAHM, if not more? Can’t really speak for secondary age as I have less contact with parents.

You seem very unsettled by anyone questioning your choices — why do you need to live in an echo chamber of women who have made a similar choice not to work? Why would it bother you so much to be a cultural outlier?

I agree is baffling.
But someone who doesnt go out in the dark, finds the school run taxing and whos husband has decided how their life will be may not have agency over their own life and is possibly questioning that now as their DC grow up.
Poster is on all the SAH threads and its a similar story.

@sw1v

I live in SW London and at the prep school age (ie 4-11), I would say the vast majority of mums are SAHMs. This is my direct experience across 3 schools. Maybe 7 out of 10 mums are SAHM, if not more? Can’t really speak for secondary age as I have less contact with parents.

I find it grim that so many women forsake financial independence and self fulfillment through professional advancement. Sure, being a stay at home parent is a valid choice, but why is it always the women and how many of them choose it freely vs out of lack of alternatives?

‘Why would it bother you so much to be a cultural outlier?’

It doesn’t bother me, I suppose I’m just glad to have not been a “cultural outlier” because it doesn’t exactly help life along, does it? am not British by the way and have never felt like a “cultural outlier” in any sense - nationality or for being a SAHM!

I live in Sweden and this is actually kind of true.

Was horrified when my DS2 started nursery and there was a very young 1 year old in his group, not walking, not at all ready for that setting, but whose mother was being obliged to leave her there in order to get unemployment benefits. It's wasn't right for either of them.

I have lost count at the amount of time I have been asked 'so what do you do all day'

I’m going to guess most SAHMs in the U.K. have also heard this question many times.

Back then there was one indoor play area for kids.

Sounds like the experience my sister had living in rural-ish Scotland. Play areas and the plethora of toddler groups weren’t a thing when we were young either, but SAHMs still managed. I never went to a single one when I was a SAHM. Again, your experience was based on your expectations rather than an issue with Swedish culture.

@iguanadonna

I live in Sweden and this is actually kind of true.

Was horrified when my DS2 started nursery and there was a very young 1 year old in his group, not walking, not at all ready for that setting, but whose mother was being obliged to leave her there in order to get unemployment benefits. It's wasn't right for either of them.

Presumably this was so she could get back into work and support herself and her child? Child poverty rates for 1 year olds is 16% in the UK vs 3.6 % in Sweden.

@sw1v

‘Why would it bother you so much to be a cultural outlier?’

It doesn’t bother me, I suppose I’m just glad to have not been a “cultural outlier” because it doesn’t exactly help life along, does it? am not British by the way and have never felt like a “cultural outlier” in any sense - nationality or for being a SAHM!

No, but having four children with a man you acknowledge couldn’t/wouldn’t retrench his career to do much day to day parenting doesn’t ‘help life along ’ either.

It seems to me that you made a series of decisions many people would not make and now you want other people to validate them so you don’t feel they were in any way unusual.

To that poster above, where do you get all that from? Of course I go out in the dark and what do you mean about my husband deciding my ‘agency?’ What died that mean? I’m not on the other SAHM thread. I was reading a thread the other day about a woman who was saying she wanted to have her daughter (only child) just at home with her until she was 5 because she didn’t like the nursery. She was only doing one ‘play date’ a week, or something like that. I thought that was a bit , but I didn’t post in that thread. It got into a discussion where some people were saying in most countries they didn’t start school until 6 anyway; but then others were saying that’s true but in other countries (stats were linked about Sweden) the vast majority are in daycare from 2. To be honest, I was just in Pret A Manger eating a sandwich and I thought, just as well I’m not in Sweden then! That’s when I posted. Its AIBU! People post any old thing on here all the time - ‘AIBU to eat a Kit Kat” or whatever. I’d never given Sweden a second thought before the other day, or that daycare is so different in other countries. It just caught my attention at that moment and I thought it was interesting.

does not dead sorry (autocorrect).

@sw1v - would you not prefer a country where there is equality in employment opportunities and equality in parenting?
What is the inequality teaching the next generation of daughters?