Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

Op..put it down to cultural differences. Swedish men do expect to be active in child rearing. It’s just what’s normal for us.. men take paternity leave. It’s normal for us and it would be strange if a man did not take time out to bond with his newborn.

We just have a different way of doing things. And if my husband didn’t take paternity leave to bond with our baby or want to parent.. because that’s what he is supposed to do as a parent, then I would definitely not be happy. As would most Swedish women. We have a different view on how mother and father should co parent than many other cultures. Which is fine.. this is what works for us and our culture.

And I think Swedish men like that they can take time out of work to bond with their children. I know many men who look fwd to this time with their little one. It’s seen as normal for the father to have his time with the little ones. And I do believe that men need to learn to care for their children by being as hands on as the mother within reason as they cannot breast feed. But you get what I am saying.

Again.. it’s just a cultural difference. I personally would not be ok with my husband doing no childcare at home. He helped make the baby and he is supposed to help raise the child with me.

No one is judged for not using the system OP. We know some foreigners come to Sweden and do things differently.. as long as they aren’t disturbing anyone then it’s fine. No one would judge you OP for not putting your children in nursery. But being in nursery is good for young children to learn Swedish where it is not the main language spoken at home. There’s that added reason and added benefit for children of non Swedish to be in nursery when/if the parents choose to send them.

I really don’t get your posts at all OP.

You don’t like the way there is good quality subsidised childcare for all children in Sweden because not everyone wants to use it.

You don’t want to use childcare, nor do you need to as you are a SAHM and your DH is a very important city type but he doesn’t do much in the house so you’re very tired.

You chose to have 4 children with the man who doesn’t pull his weight, well other than earning the mega bucks that allow you to be a SAHM in London.

None of it makes any sense!

@sw1v

Sweden must have its fair share of entrepreneurs though, or men who have multiple business interests. It’s not always as simple as cancelling a work trip because everything else would still be going on - for instance, you might be able to delay certain things in certain companies, but others are about to IPO or whatever. The emails keep coming. The City Index or the stock markets don’t just stop? I couldn’t even tell you what my husband is doing half the time, let alone what he earns because it’s not like that. He’s never had a salary. I mean, he has one main company, but also is a non-exec director for about ten other companies, but these change over the weeks / months / years and involve different levels of commitment. It’s always changing. Some pay in shares and it’s complicated. Plus he has a City Index portfolio that needs action at certain times and other investments that he needs to be on top of to varying degrees. It’s really complicated basically. If he was at home with the kids, he wouldn’t switch off from work. I mean I’d leave him with them now they’re older (and also his work is more stable now to ten years ago DS he’s stepping back a bit), but I couldn’t have done when they were little as it would have been unsafe with 4 kids and his level of preoccupation. That’s the truth of it. Most men around here are very similar to my husband. He’s far from unique in this respect.

Well, I suppose you should have chosen more carefully.

To be honest, I think if I’d been working as well with 4 kids we’d probably be divorced because you can only spread yourself so thinly.

I can assure you Sweden is fab if you have a young family - as is Copenhagen (we live there) there is a ton of flexibility around work and childcare is so well priced women can actually work but work less if they choose and yes men (and there are some fabulous handsome real family men here) are indeed expected to be very hands on- the women have high expectations. There are downsides but you have massively overstated the dark thing— it is indeed about an hour earlier in winter than uk but everywhere tends to be warm, cosy and lovely lighting— here in Copenhagen they keep the Xmas lights on at homes till late Feb and we have great beaches and woods too for winter walks !! To be honest I do miss friends and family but apart from that not much — and for anyone who needs to work with young children it’s far more family friendly. I honestly think loads of uk young mums who would like to keep their hand in career wise would love it

I really don’t get what the issue is.

And if you don’t want to work nor use daycare then it’s really no big deal— there are plenty of mums here who don’t work or do something a small amount of hours per week .

@sw1v

I am not making a thinly-veiled dig at anyone. I just believe in personal choice. It’s an interesting discussion (well, to me anyway) - why are things do different in Sweden. How much is personal choice and how much is state intervention (direct or indirect). This is AIBU and I’m happy to be U, but I thought this was the place for debates?

I was surprised by the stats, that’s all. If anyone has insights, then please share.

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

The answer is because childcare is affordable/free in sweden!!

I'm not knocking the UK, I'm Irish, childcare is a big problem here. So many mothers forced out of the workplace. I envy the Swedes their great childcare system.

@BigYellowHat

Good for you OP. Thanks for making more people feel guilty who needed to go back to work for financial reasons. The day I put my 10 week old in nursery was the crappest day ever but my ex was a shit so I would have had no money if I didn’t work.

Meh you shouldn’t. Look how happy Op’s DH is working away so often and never taking days off.

@sw1v

Yes that’s true Pandora and, as I said, he definitely has a lot more time and flexibility now. In fact, he’s semi/retired at 50. But he never worked for a single company with a salary scale or clear progression path in terms of ‘seniority,’ that’s what I’m trying to say. It’s never been like that. And for many years, it was manic frankly, not to mention a bit of a rollercoaster at times so I just had to let him get on with it. I don’t feel like I had any choice and no amount of free daycare would have made my life easier!

well I'm a single parent and affordable childcare would certainly have made my life a lot lot easier...........................

@MarshaBradyo

Yes I don’t either.. is the issue that we have nursery that is subsidized or that men take paternity leave or that it’s very dark?

Sweden is not perfect. We can’t control the weather or darkness. But the nursery and paternity leave I think is a good thing. But I could be bias.

So I’m not really sure what one would find bad about women having affordable childcare. Im really honestly lost as to why this is bad. I’m not trying to be obtuse.. I just can’t see a downside to that.

@sw1v

My husband pays at least 45% tax on everything, plus corporation tax and other taxes and obviously his employees are entitled to maternity / paternity pay, holiday, sickness pay and everything, but I know full well if he was sick he would get zero as he’s self-employed. So he would just have to style it out. He’s never had holiday pay or sick pay or paternity pay in his life.

This confuses me. If he is paying corporation tax and has lots of employees etc it sounds like he is running a company? And so he would surely be paying himself a wage, even if small to avoid more tax on that wage (his choice) then taking dividends, and is not self employed?

Sweden always rates highly as one of the best countries in the world for families & quality of life I think!
I am in France and here statutory maternity is 16 weeks full pay, and then… nothing. Mostly back to work with baby 3 months old. This is very very common! You can then take parental holiday but it’s unpaid, for up to 2 years before child turns 3. So most mothers go back after the 16 weeks maternity, and baby can go into crèche from 10 weeks old. I think this is far worse than heavily subsidised childcare from 1! X

I’m saying, if you have a husband who is a workaholic (and many are), it’s all very well saying they should be doing this or they should be doing that, but in reality, it’s not going to happen, is it? Factor in some cultural differences (in my husband’s case he’s from an Islamic background though non-practising and actually they came to the U.K. to escape what was going on, but still), it’s a set up that can either work or not work for the wife. It happened to work for me for various reasons. Mainly personality, I guess. But if I was in a culture where, on top of him and all that has come with him, I’d also had to put my 4 kids in childcare and get a job, I think I’d be either divorced and / or have had a nervous breakdown. So because I thought it was a cultural expectation to have young kids in childcare and be working in Sweden when they’re 1 or 2, I said, thank god we don’t live in Sweden! “We” meaning my family, not the British public at large!

But the very reasonable poster, MarshmallowSwede (among others), have since explained over the course of the thread that although the vast majority of kids are in daycare in Sweden by age 2, it’s doesn’t translate into ‘stigma’ if your kids do not follow this route. So Thankyou for this and it’s been interesting. Also, I hadn’t realised there are such cultural differences between the U.K. and Sweden in terms of men’s roles / expectations, did that is also quite fascinating to me actually.

@sw1v

To be honest, I think if I’d been working as well with 4 kids we’d probably be divorced because you can only spread yourself so thinly.

But you could have had fewer than four, or made it plain before you had children that you weren’t going to give up work, so you were both going to have to consider how to combine parenting and work by changing careers, working more flexibly etc?

I’m afraid I have very little patience with the hushed and reverent discussions of how people’s DH are much too busy and important to co-parent.

It's getting late, I can't keep up with OP anymore. Very confused. Don't know what the topic is anymore.
Sov gott everyone😴

@Cranncat, I agree. Also I am far too busy and important myself to have children with someone who wouldn’t co-parent

‘But you could have had fewer than four, or made it plain before you had children that you weren’t going to give up work, so you were both going to have to consider how to combine parenting and work by changing careers, working more flexibly etc?’

No I could not actually. I mean we could have had less children I suppose, yes, but that’s not what happened so what’s the point of bringing that up.

@sw1v

I’m saying, if you have a husband who is a workaholic (and many are), it’s all very well saying they should be doing this or they should be doing that, but in reality, it’s not going to happen, is it? Factor in some cultural differences (in my husband’s case he’s from an Islamic background though non-practising and actually they came to the U.K. to escape what was going on, but still), it’s a set up that can either work or not work for the wife. It happened to work for me for various reasons. Mainly personality, I guess. But if I was in a culture where, on top of him and all that has come with him, I’d also had to put my 4 kids in childcare and get a job, I think I’d be either divorced and / or have had a nervous breakdown. So because I thought it was a cultural expectation to have young kids in childcare and be working in Sweden when they’re 1 or 2, I said, thank god we don’t live in Sweden! “We” meaning my family, not the British public at large!

But the very reasonable poster, MarshmallowSwede (among others), have since explained over the course of the thread that although the vast majority of kids are in daycare in Sweden by age 2, it’s doesn’t translate into ‘stigma’ if your kids do not follow this route. So Thankyou for this and it’s been interesting. Also, I hadn’t realised there are such cultural differences between the U.K. and Sweden in terms of men’s roles / expectations, did that is also quite fascinating to me actually.

To be honest not all men are workaholics. You are very influenced by your personal experiences on that front. Similarly many women are. And many women have the sort of role your husband has in terms of the inability to ignore emails, having to work away, high income etc etc. Similarly many families - whether or not one or both parents have that sort of role - do want to split childcare equally or as best as they can and one thing stopping them is insufficiently affordable childcare and/or sufficient hours of available childcare and/or insufficient parental leave options

@sw1v

I am not making a thinly-veiled dig at anyone. I just believe in personal choice. It’s an interesting discussion (well, to me anyway) - why are things do different in Sweden. How much is personal choice and how much is state intervention (direct or indirect). This is AIBU and I’m happy to be U, but I thought this was the place for debates?

I was surprised by the stats, that’s all. If anyone has insights, then please share.

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

Fewer people in Sweden see being lazy and living off the state as a lifestyle choice

@Lunde

Lucky OP does not live in Siglufjörður (Northern Iceland where they film the thriller Trapped) where they have no sun at all for 74 days each year (mid November until late January) and even the children of SAHM have to cope with no proper daylight

This is not true. The sun doesn't get very high in the sky in Iceland in mid-winter but it does always rise. There is no period of 24 hour darkness and you can see the sun in December. It gets down to about 3 hours of daylight at a minimum. Many parts of Scandinavia are further north than northern Iceland.

So the Swedish system wouldn't work for you (even though no one actually has to follow the system") because your husband is a shit partner and dad?

You're right, you wouldn't have been better off in Sweden, or in any country really, because the problem is the individual involved, not the system.

there is no need to be like that when I’m just being honest about my experience. Would you like me to make something up?

No, I’d like you not to denigrate the culture of another country, one which does what your husband doesn’t (value family over work) based on your very narrow view of how things are in the U.K.

Also, I hadn’t realised there are such cultural differences between the U.K. and Sweden in terms of men’s roles / expectations, did that is also quite fascinating to me actually.

One would have thought that’s something that would have come up in conversation with the plethora of “Swedish friends” you have, given the level of conversation went into the minutiae of how dark it is when kids are at daycare.

@sw1v so what you're saying reinforces my previous point: that we all make life choices. We all have to operate within parameters; they aren't the same for all of us, but the fact is, we all have agency over our lives.

You could have had fewer children which would mean being a WOHP would be more affordable. You could have partnered a man with different views about parenting.

There is no right or wrong here, but you seem to want there to be.

To give an example: I love children. I wanted at least two children. The tipping point for us was 3. If we'd had 4, I wouldn't have been able to afford to work. I love children but I also do a valuable job, I went to university, I trained for a profession and I didn't want to give it all up. So, we stopped at 3 children. If I'd had 4, it would be very disingenuous of me to be sitting here now, bemoaning that I hadn't had a career because I could afford the childcare. Other posters would quite rightly tell me I'd made a choice to prioritise quantity of children over being able to continue in my profession.

It's also important to recognise that every decision we make, influences subsequent decisions. If I'd stopped working and become a SAHM after dc1, I highly doubt I would have decided to return to work after dc2, and certainly not after dc3, when the childcare bill equated to my take home pay. But because I returned after dc1 (even though it was tough, with a 12 week old baby) I didn't even question giving up my career after dc2 and 3. I'd come this far, I was confident in my ability to combine working with parenting (and breastfeeding!) and it therefore made carrying on working, even with the huge childcare bill, completely worth it for me.

It seems that you have made various life decisions (having 4 children, wanting a husband who is sole earner) but are now trying to pick holes in other ways of doing things. It's all quite odd! You've got the relationship you bought into. What's the gripe?

Sweden sounds fairly similar to Iceland in many respects. We have the same kind of subsidised nurseries here and the huge majority of children start as soon as they get a place (between 1 and 2 years old usually). We don't get quite as much leave but also have the 'use it or lose it' system for paternity leave.

To achieve greater equality between the sexes, you have to go at it from both angles. It's obviously really important to get more women financially independent, which means they need to be able to work after maternity leave, but of course you also have to get men to shift their priorities and take on more responsibility for domestic tasks and for raising their own children. I think the combination of shared leave and high-quality, cheap childcare makes Iceland (and Sweden no doubt) an absolutely brilliant place to be a parent (mother or father).

It basically leads to a whole society that is far more family friendly, where couples are far more likely to work as a team to raise their children, everyone is more likely to have a reasonable work/life balance, and all parents are expected to take time to deal with ill children, school events, inset days, half-term holidays, not to mention time off to be the sole carer for the baby in the first couple of years of its life.

I wouldn't move back and raise my children in the UK for anything.