Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

@toomuchlaundry

I assume Sweden still have shift workers and HCP who would have to work beyond 4pm

Some local authorities will also have weekend childcare (usually childminders) and some even have nighttime childcare for parents who have to work nights

@RickJames it’s bizarre to me that so many are ignoring the actual, widely reported policy and pretending that it’s something voluntary and kind.

Here’s a report from a non-profit outlining the package off racist laws the mandatory pre-school programme is part of. As the report says, “municipalities may terminate child benefit if parents refuse to comply”.

I understand that some people might have a very idealised view of Scandinavian countries, but Denmark has begun to treat refugees extremely badly in recent years.

@RickJames sorry, here is the link irr.org.uk/article/denmarks-ghetto-package-discrimination-enshrined-in-law/

@Lunde thank you for that.

It seems OP has this notion that 1 yos are snatched from their parents and kept in some kind of unsafe ,terrible place from 9-5 every day.

In fact, as is the case in the UK, there is context, and opportunity and choice depending on what suits an individual family.

In fact, reading more about it it seem Sweden has even more choice.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

Can any of the Swedish clarify the hours situation too? OP seems to think it's 9-5 , 5 days a week.

I can't find stats about how many hours children spend in childcare, just that it's at least 15 hours a week(so similar to the UK).

There are shift provisions as well, but I'm not fully in the know about how this works. It varies slightly between councils. But there are things like "sovförskolor" (sleeping kindergartens) - although I think there's usually a debate about the lack of these. Someone else might know more!

@mugandspoon the idea refugees should be grateful they’re forced to put their child in ‘education’ for 25 hours per week from age one, because the state believes they’re an enemy within and a threat to society, is peak white obliviousness.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

Can any of the Swedish clarify the hours situation too? OP seems to think it's 9-5 , 5 days a week.

I can't find stats about how many hours children spend in childcare, just that it's at least 15 hours a week(so similar to the UK).

I posted about this above:

"Someone said that the fact that children go to preschool aged 1 does not mean they go full-time. No, but many do! A newspaper article from 2015 shows stats and comments on the fact that too many children spend too much time in preschool.

In Solna, a suburb of Stockholm, each child attended on average 36 hours per week. That was the highest average. Six other Stockholm councils had an average of 35 hours per week. Five very rural councils had the lowest average number per week and child: 24 and 25 hours. And this is the average.

Between 2005 and 2015 the national average number of hours spent have increased from 29 to 31 hours.

In Karlskrona council, 100 children attended preschool 55 hours per week. (Hardly in the interest of the child, and that's what the people interviewed are saying: that we need to also look at the effects on children who spend that many hours away from home.)

Here's the article for anyone who wants to google translate: www.aftonbladet.se/relationer/a/ddGVzO/barn-gar-for-langa-dagar-pa-forskolan

In my view (ex-pat Swede, now Brit), some Swedes have become over reliant on preschool, not trusting their own ability to care for their own children. For example, siblings of newborns have a right to attend nursery school 30 hours per week, even if one parent is at home with the other child. This is believed to provide continuity of care for the older sibling, and more time for the parent to focus on the newborn. Fair enough.

However, in Stockholm, intense lobbying led to the city increasing this to full-time, 40 hours. Could anyone argue that in a standard situation, it is better for a sibling to attend nursery school 40 hours per week, when mum/dad is at home with the younger sibling? The new policy led to an immediate increase in uptake: diagram here, ka.se/2017/04/21/fler-barn-gar-heltid-pa-forskolan/ ('Andel barn med nyfött syskon som går heltid): not quite a third of all 30-hour children immediately went up to 40 hours."

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

Can any of the Swedish clarify the hours situation too? OP seems to think it's 9-5 , 5 days a week.

I can't find stats about how many hours children spend in childcare, just that it's at least 15 hours a week(so similar to the UK).

When my DS was 1 he went for 15 hours a week which is the maximum allowed for someone who isn't working or studying. Then when he was around 2 they discovered that I was actually disabled, hence why I don't work, so they said I could send him whenever I need time to rest too. So he then went from 10-2 5 days a week or a bit more if I had appointments.

[quote SparrowNest]@mugandspoon the idea refugees should be grateful they’re forced to put their child in ‘education’ for 25 hours per week from age one, because the state believes they’re an enemy within and a threat to society, is peak white obliviousness.[/quote]
I have no idea where you got the latter part of your statement from.

I was responding to a comment from someone who stated that people are probably very grateful that their children are offered free education. As I wrote, some are, but just like in any country, the ones who might need it the most often do not make use of it.

I haven't written anything about 'enemy within' or similar strange statements.

It enables women (and men) to have a choice about returning to work by providing affordable nursery choices - something not available to all here in the UK.
They also provide 480 days of paid parental leave when a baby is born - that’s an amazing amount of time - and a large proportion of that is on 80% of their salary.

I really wish I did live in Sweden! Wow!

Wheres Rishi?!

Op I think you have completely misunderstood the stats.

I have spent 5 minutes in Google and the 95% appears to refer to the number utilising 15 hours per week - that’s hardly full time daycare.

And the quality of that childcare sounds amazing. Heavily subsidised.

From what I quickly read no one of forced to use it.

I think you should read around the subject just a little before posting. Fair enough you are anti childcare - but teaching child the to be inquisitive and if timed doesn’t always happen at home!!!!!

I know what you mean, in broad terms - and Swedes can be very reliant on the system, for sure. But what's the alternative in a modern society ;) And when you're putting this against the British system, where there's very limited choice (if you're not rich), I'm not sure this is helpful. I agree that no system is perfect, and that there should be a happy medium, but but I still know which system I'd prefer on any given day.

I don't see how the Danish provision of child care to immigrant children is different from the UK sure start programme, "targeted at parents and children under the age of four living in the most disadvantaged areas. Sure Start projects deliver a wide variety of services which are designed to support children's learning skills, health and well-being, and social and emotional development."

@LemonSwan

*It enables women (and men) to have a choice about returning to work by providing affordable nursery choices - something not available to all here in the UK. They also provide 480 days of paid parental leave when a baby is born - that’s an amazing amount of time - and a large proportion of that is on 80% of their salary.*

I really wish I did live in Sweden! Wow!

Wheres Rishi?!

Not just 80% of salary either. That's the statutory parental pay. Just like in the UK some employers pay enhanced parental leave. My DH got 100% of his pay when he was off. He took 3 months off when DS was born, then worked just 3 days a week until he was year old, then went to 4 days a week until he was 2. All on full pay.

The R4 British / Swedish comic programme is on now!

I think this is the second series.

Sorry, this should have been for mugandspoon

I know what you mean, in broad terms - and Swedes can be very reliant on the system, for sure. But what's the alternative in a modern society ;) And when you're putting this against the British system, where there's very limited choice (if you're not rich), I'm not sure this is helpful. I agree that no system is perfect, and that there should be a happy medium, but but I still know which system I'd prefer on any given day.

@mugandspoon you were quoting and responding to FatCatThinCat, who was talking about the Danish policy of forcing children of “ghetto” migrants into 25 hours/week compulsory “education” from age 1.

If you didn’t realise that’s what they were referring to then fair enough.

@Mellowyellow222

Op I think you have completely misunderstood the stats.

I have spent 5 minutes in Google and the 95% appears to refer to the number utilising 15 hours per week - that’s hardly full time daycare.

And the quality of that childcare sounds amazing. Heavily subsidised.

From what I quickly read no one of forced to use it.

I think you should read around the subject just a little before posting. Fair enough you are anti childcare - but teaching child the to be inquisitive and if timed doesn’t always happen at home!!!!!

Mellowyellow, I think you should read a few more posts with correct statistics before you rely on Google ;-)

@Stealhsquirrelnutkin you don’t understand how forcibly separating children from their parents for 25 hours/week (iirc it actually tends to be 30 as it includes nap time) is different from SureStart?

Also I feel we are well cared for. My younger colleague is 20 wks pregnant and because of covid risks (she’s already had it and are vaccinated) our boss has decided to send her home with 80% pay. So she will be home forcthe rest of the pregnancy and then after birth she and her partner together have 18 months of paid maternity leave (which they can save until the child is 12 yrs old if they would like to). We are not complaining here, I can assure you we have a happy life.

Nobody forcibly separates children from their parents. The children want to be at daycare with their friends and all the interesting things to do, and the parents are happy for their children to have the chance to learn social skills in a safe and stimulating environment.

[quote SparrowNest]@Stealhsquirrelnutkin you don’t understand how forcibly separating children from their parents for 25 hours/week (iirc it actually tends to be 30 as it includes nap time) is different from SureStart?[/quote]
But why are you talking about Denmark (a pretty xenophobic country) in a thread about Sweden? It's like saying that Britain and Ireland "must" be the same

Start your own thread rather than derailing

The children want to be at daycare

What age are you talking about?

@sarralim

Sorry, this should have been for mugandspoon

I know what you mean, in broad terms - and Swedes can be very reliant on the system, for sure. But what's the alternative in a modern society ;) And when you're putting this against the British system, where there's very limited choice (if you're not rich), I'm not sure this is helpful. I agree that no system is perfect, and that there should be a happy medium, but but I still know which system I'd prefer on any given day.

I mainly agree with you. As an expat I kind of see some flaws with the Swedish system when I compare it with the English one, and the rose-tinted picture so many seem to give just does not ring true to me.

I think there are several issues with the current system (have quoted some above) that too many people just refuse to see. For example, the size of the groups in preschools. For years, teachers have written, appealed, screamed ;-) about the impossible work situation when the number of children just goes up with no more staff, but most parents appear to think 'oh, but my nursery is fine, so there can't be a problem'....

(And whether that's true, or if they sometimes like to think that things are great, because being aware that it's not great for 2 teachers to try to care for 12 small children would be hard, I don't know - but I know it happens sometimes.)

I wonder what the difference in total tax paid over a lifetime compares between Sweden and England. This subsidised childcare etc has to be paid by higher tax rates. So as a percentage of income it would be interesting to see whether we are actually better off, it just doesn’t seem that way when paying high childcare costs