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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

825 replies

sw1v · 27/10/2021 14:40

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

OP posts:
Fimofriend · 27/10/2021 18:05

@SparrowNest No, they are encouraging the immigrants to send their kids to daycare, at least part-time, so they can speak Danish when they start in school. Before they started doing that, many immigrant children couldn't speak a word of Danish when they started school and despite very costly efforts most of those children never caught up with the other kids. The state is encouraging the immigrants to send their children to daycare in order to give the kids a fair chance in life. Because they are our fellow citizens and we care about them.

FatCatThinCat · 27/10/2021 18:06

As a brit living in Sweden I can honestly say I absolutely love Sweden's attitude towards children. They adore children. All children. They don't see them as a burden, someone else's problem. There's no bickering about whether to feed hungry children in school, we feed ALL our children. They're not a nuisance, barely tolerated by anyone other than their parents. They are the future, they are the reason the rest of us do what we do, to give them the very best we can. ALL of them.

Sweden has its faults but how it prioritises and cares for its children is not one of them.

Lunde · 27/10/2021 18:08

@sw1v

chaosrabbitland - my husband came to the U.K. as a refugee at age 2 (not by boat). I think it would have been very strange if, after all that, he was required to be removed from his mother and put in a daycentre 9-5 or whatever the hours may be as some sort of state policy. That’s too heavy-handed for my liking and would be very odd - not to mention highly distressing- for many people. He had plenty of opportunity to become ‘Anglicised’ when he started school and I would say he is very much an asset to the U.K, as are the majority of immigrants.
@sw1v

WTF are you talking about - there is no state policy. Before I had kids I did (free) Swedish lessons in a village that was also a refugee centre. While we were in class (8.30-11,30) their kids were in daycare but they were not entitled to any additional hours and often complained about this

As I said - I was a SAHM in Sweden,

sarralim · 27/10/2021 18:08

And I'd like to add - not necessarily higher taxes than in the UK. It's just taxed differently.

And women obviously pay their way, and for the childcare - by working.

FatCatThinCat · 27/10/2021 18:09

[quote Fimofriend]@SparrowNest No, they are encouraging the immigrants to send their kids to daycare, at least part-time, so they can speak Danish when they start in school. Before they started doing that, many immigrant children couldn't speak a word of Danish when they started school and despite very costly efforts most of those children never caught up with the other kids. The state is encouraging the immigrants to send their children to daycare in order to give the kids a fair chance in life. Because they are our fellow citizens and we care about them.[/quote]
And I bet they're grateful for it. I certainly was when my DS got to start nursery in Sweden despite me being a SAHM. He went for that very reason, to learn the language and be fluent by the time he started school.

Anonymous48 · 27/10/2021 18:11

@sw1v

Somebody on another thread just quoted these stats today.
And you believed it? Maybe apply some critical thinking skills. How would they "force" parents to put their kids in day care?
Lunde · 27/10/2021 18:11

@toomuchlaundry

Quite a few people on MN don't like the idea of children being in nurseries from a young age, if they have to use childcare they would prefer childminders or grandparents, but many choose to be SAHM (I know some don't have the choice due to the cost of childcare but many parents still choose to be SAHM or at least part-time).

Obviously, OP is one of these people. I went back to work when DS was 1 but only went back 3 days a week, not because of daycare costs, but because I wanted to spend time with him. Many of my friends were the same. There were plenty of activities available for us to do too.

I would not have liked it if societal pressure was that I should return full-time whether there was cheap day care or not.

OP may have used the wrong words but everyone mocking her for the stats, but the stats were pretty accurate.

@toomuchlaundry

In Sweden you have many childcare choices

  • LA nursery
  • childminder
-private nursery
  • parental cooperative nursery

All must abide by the same payment rules and will not take children before the age of 1. If you want chilcare before age 1 you will need to employ a nanny

vajingleberry · 27/10/2021 18:11

But I can’t help feeling I’d kick off over there if the vibe was they wanted me to put my baby in a day centre.

What I’m saying is, if I lived in a society where over 90% of 2 year-olds were in full-time daycare, then I would probably have felt compelled to do the same (even though I didn’t actually want to).

Which is it?
Can't really be both.

Stealhsquirrelnutkin · 27/10/2021 18:11

You are being unreasonable. I worked in Swedish state run day care for years. The official state day care centres have a ratio of staff/children that would make UK childcare providers weep with envy.

Firstly parents in Sweden have 18 months paid parental leave, 3 months of which MUST be taken out by the other parent, or it is not paid out. Up until then men had found it difficult to ask for their full quota of parental leave, so this gave men an excuse to tell their jobs that they were absolutely forced to take out their 3 months "pappaledig" because otherwise the state would snaffle the money. Having sole care of the children without being supervised by their female partners allowed them to develop their own ways of doing the work. Which made a massive difference in how confident fathers feel when looking after their own children, thereby making it much more likely that child care responsibilities are shared more fairly (still not 50/50 of course) between parents, since dad has already managed to book child health care appointments, or playdates without the aid of their social secretary/partner.

People WANT to send their children to day care, not in order to warehouse them during the day while the parents have to work, but because it teaches them so much that they don't learn at home. How to get on in a group, how to be empathetic to others, how to share. Then there is the child sized furniture, and the massive amount of indoor and outdoor toys to stimulate motor functions and develop basic skills.

In Stockholm, where I worked, most day nurseries are purpose build, and have 3 or 4 child care groups, each with their own regular staff, sharing a kitchen (with an employed cook), and a wet room for play where the children can be naked and cover themselves in mud or paint and be sluiced off afterwards. An outdoor play space with climbing frames, sand play and a flat space for trundling round on wheeled toys.

When I started working it was normal for the children to be divided into groups by age. So the very youngest children (6 months to 3 years old) were in a group of no more than 8 children with 3 full time staff (working a rota covering the hours between 6.30 am - 6.30pm) and a couple of part time staff who turned up in time to push the double buggies when they trundled out after breakfast to head to a local park or place of interest, and cover lunch breaks afterwards.) They had baby toys and a very quiet environment, with lots of naps and story times.

As the children neared the age when they could move to one of the other groups with older children (age 4-7) they were eager to go and get their little hands on all the good stuff that the older children had access to. They'd come and visit the group they were going to move to several times a week in the weeks leading up to the change over.

(Children starting day care for the first time had a three week hand over period, where a parent would accompany them. Then, after a couple of days, once they were playing happily, the parent would sneak off for a few minutes to have a cup of coffee in the staff room, ready to come back straight away if the child noticed their absence and got distressed. Gradually they'd spend longer and longer away from the child, until by the time the three weeks were up and most children were comfortably settled with their new friends and all the interesting stuff available.) Some children did still cry when being left in the morning (mostly the ones whose parents insisted on interrupting their play to say "daddy/mummy is going away now, I'm leaving you, I need to go to work" etc until the child started sobbing. The same children would often react with anger when their parents came to collect them, saying they were too busy playing and didn't want to go home yet.)

Breakfast was around 8am, though many children didn't turn up until 9, which was when the important activities started. Parents arriving after 9 without a valid excuse had it made clear that they were disrupting their child's day and depriving them of important bonding activities.

The 4 - 7 year olds started their day just after 9am, sitting in a circle with staff, they got to take it in turns to pull yesterday's date off the calendar block, talk about what day it was, what the weather was doing, what season of the year it was, or anything else that was a topic of interest and relevant for children in that age group, and what was going to be happening that day. They learnt to take turns, to let others talk without interrupting, and generally be considerate, without even noticing, because they were so captivated by the discussion and the chances they had to be the centre of attention.

Between 10 and 12 we'd be playing outdoors, either playing or doing something educational. Like, when fish and fishing had been a subject of interest one morning, taking the entire group of 12 children on a bus ride to the local food hall, to look at the different kinds of fish on their beds of ice, buy some whole (mercifully gutted) fish and take them back for the cook to make into lunch. The little ghouls actually ate the fish too, much to the surprise of many parents.

Lunch was another pedagogic experience. We staff got paid to eat lunch with the children (our meals were free because we were working). I was amazed when I found out that teachers in the UK have to pay for their own meals when they eat alongside the children. I would not have wanted to pay for a meal that was usually cold before I got round to it, since I would be kept busy helping the 5 children at my dinner table to peel their potatoes and cut up their meat (not to mention serving the whole fish so that they didn't get any bones). Nobody left the table without permission, and at the end of the meal they climbed down from their chairs and carried their plates, cutlery and glasses over to the dishwasher and carefully made sure to put them in the right place. Much to the astonishment of parents, who said they had no idea their child could do that. The trick being that the small children emulate the older children, so we staff didn't really have to do more than keep an eye on the procedure.

After lunch was story hour and nap time while we staff took turns to have our own lunch breaks. The back outdoors again for the rest of the afternoon to play with the outdoor toys. If it was absolutely pouring down, or 25 degrees below zero we might come back indoors a bit earlier, but everyone had the proper clothes for the weather, and a big crate of lost clothing to dip into when someone didn't have thermal tights or had lost a glove.

In summer, when most Swedes take 6 weeks off to go and sit in their country cottages in the middle of the forest, we'd often only have 4 or 5 children in the entire building. So we'd pack a picnic and 6 staff and 5 children would catch a train or bus to the coast and spend the day playing in the water or lying in the sun, before heading back in time for them to be collected. That had been the tradition since state day care first opened back in the 1930s. Sadly I only got to enjoy it for a few years, before the bean counters realised that they could save huge amounts of money by closing most of the day care centres during the summer months, forcing the staff to take their holidays, and just have a few day care centres open, filled with all the children whose parents had to work during the summer. Which was sad, because it was stressful for the children to be thrust into a group of children and adults that they didn't know, and the staff didn't have the time to take them on long day trips, so they mostly had short trips to local play parks and afternoons spent in the day care grounds.

The only time I was alone with the children was when it was my turn to open up, when I'd be alone for the first half hour after 6.30 in the morning, during which time 2 or 3 early birds would arrive. By breakfast at 8 o'clock there would be 3 of us staff in each group, and 7 or 8 children between the ages of 4 and 7 would have arrived (the babies had a higher staff to child ratio). When we went to the park I never had more than 4 children to keep an eye on, unless another member of staff took some children to the toilet and asked me to keep an eye on those of her group that wanted to stay and play.

Before I left they changed the age segregation system, and started making every day care group a "family group" with children from 9 months to 7 years old. The staff who had worked all their lives in the baby group were very upset by it, and some of them decided to retire rather than face the hurly burly of a mixed age group. I thought it was not really in the best interests of the children, because although some toddlers thrive in a busy noisy group of mixed aged children some of the more sensitive ones did not. I remember one little boy who would just sit on the floor holding his arms up and crying to be picked up. Either someone carried him or he cried his heart out. Luckily there were still enough staff for us to be able to give him the care he needed, and he soon became the pet of some of the older girls who loved playing with him, so he did integrate into the group eventually. But if we'd had several children with the same needs I think they would have suffered.

I often wonder how child minders in the UK manage, when they are often completely alone with several toddlers. How do they manage to give each child the attention they need, when do they have their lunch and tea/coffee breaks? Or go to the toilet in peace? In fact, come to think of it, how do they change nappies on one toddler while keeping an eye on all the others? We never left a group of children unsupervised, if we had to leave for some reason we'd ask another member of staff to keep an eye on things till we got back.

Also, our wages weren't great, but they were enough to live on (just) as a single person, pay our hefty Swedish taxes and our union dues. The way "caring" jobs are paid in the UK shows how poorly the work traditionally carried out by women is valued.

sw1v · 27/10/2021 18:12

Lunde - that was to the pp talking about the policy in Denmark and also to the pp who said other countries should also follow Denmark to put immigrant toddlers in special pre-schools to learn the language and culture.

OP posts:
sarralim · 27/10/2021 18:13

@FatCatThinCat

As a brit living in Sweden I can honestly say I absolutely love Sweden's attitude towards children. They adore children. All children. They don't see them as a burden, someone else's problem. There's no bickering about whether to feed hungry children in school, we feed ALL our children. They're not a nuisance, barely tolerated by anyone other than their parents. They are the future, they are the reason the rest of us do what we do, to give them the very best we can. ALL of them.

Sweden has its faults but how it prioritises and cares for its children is not one of them.

Exactly @FatCatThinCat.

I'm often saddened by this very attitude in the UK - this, "why should I have to pay for anyone else's children?". And I think the private school system illustrates this perfectly.

But without children we have no future. They are all our children.

PuttingTheLaughterInSlaughter · 27/10/2021 18:13

@Lairymary

Currently sat in my living room in Karlstad with my 3 year old sat on my knee watching Peter Rabbit. I can confirm this isn't true. Hmm
Have you got the curtains closed and a fake moustache on your DC in case the nursery police come round? Haha.
TrampolineForMrKite · 27/10/2021 18:13

@DressedUpAtAnIvy

Where did you read this, Xenophobia Today?
You win this thread @DressedUpAtAnIvy and on the very first comment.
AccidentallyOnPurpose · 27/10/2021 18:14

Can any of the Swedish clarify the hours situation too? OP seems to think it's 9-5 , 5 days a week.

I can't find stats about how many hours children spend in childcare, just that it's at least 15 hours a week(so similar to the UK).

SparrowNest · 27/10/2021 18:14

@Fimofriend it’s compulsory, it’s been reported quite widely

toomuchlaundry · 27/10/2021 18:15

I assume Sweden still have shift workers and HCP who would have to work beyond 4pm

RickJames · 27/10/2021 18:17

@Fimofriend

They do that here in Germany too. In fact when I lived in a different state we got to jump the queue for KG because we were Brit and Dutch. It was aimed at asylum seekers but they didn't differentiate between origin countries.

I've never heard anyone criticise this policy. Foreigner mums get some time to work and Germans are happy we are integrating. Honestly, it was an absolute blessing, we need the cultural and language input. I used to love kindergarten Sankt Martin lantern night. Stood around, Muslim mums - Turkish, Syrian, Moroccan, Polish mums, Russian mums, me, German mums, watching our kids with the lanterns doing a little play. Learning the culture with the German kids. It's really good.

sarralim · 27/10/2021 18:17

@toomuchlaundry

Quite a few people on MN don't like the idea of children being in nurseries from a young age, if they have to use childcare they would prefer childminders or grandparents, but many choose to be SAHM (I know some don't have the choice due to the cost of childcare but many parents still choose to be SAHM or at least part-time).

Obviously, OP is one of these people. I went back to work when DS was 1 but only went back 3 days a week, not because of daycare costs, but because I wanted to spend time with him. Many of my friends were the same. There were plenty of activities available for us to do too.

I would not have liked it if societal pressure was that I should return full-time whether there was cheap day care or not.

OP may have used the wrong words but everyone mocking her for the stats, but the stats were pretty accurate.

It's great to have a choice. It's just that many times, people are forced to see it as such, when it really isn't. They just have to become a SAHM/parent because they can't afford the small mortgage required for childcare. So - I'm all for having a genuine choice. But dressing the UK system up as a such, is flawed and only plays into the hands of (Tory) politicians.
SparrowNest · 27/10/2021 18:18

@FatCatThinCat please read about the actual policy, as I said it’s been quite widely reported including in British and US media. Ive provided two links already.

Here’s an article about another policy targeting refugees: seizing any assets they have.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/26/danish-parliament-approves-plan-to-seize-assets-from-refugees

Denmark has become increasingly hostile to refugees and migrants in recent years, particularly from Muslim countries.

mugandspoon · 27/10/2021 18:19

@sarralim

And I'd like to add - not necessarily higher taxes than in the UK. It's just taxed differently.

And women obviously pay their way, and for the childcare - by working.

Taxes in Sweden are categorically higher than in the UK, irrespective of how you count them. This OECD tax database for example shows the UK level at approx 32 in percent of total labour costs; Sweden is at approx 45 %.

Don't forget about the social security costs for the employer - the 'hidden tax' - about 32 % on everything. The fact that the employee doesn't see it as easily doesn't mean that it's not there.

Lunde · 27/10/2021 18:20

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

Can any of the Swedish clarify the hours situation too? OP seems to think it's 9-5 , 5 days a week.

I can't find stats about how many hours children spend in childcare, just that it's at least 15 hours a week(so similar to the UK).

You choose the number of hours you want - DD1 started at 10 hours a week

My nearest daycare is open from 6.30am until 6pm but everyone was there for a different number of hours depending on parents' work

Children from 3 get 15 free hours

When my children were daycare age it was very common for one parent to utilize the legal rights that parents have to work a max of 6 hours per day until the child turn 8. So often kids were in nursery max 8-2 (but often less)

Winterlights1 · 27/10/2021 18:20

Ok, I work in a nursery in Sweden and have for over 20 years. I’ve also worked in nurseries in England. I don’t know where you get your information from. You are not forced to put them in nursery at the age of 1 at all. We get 18 months of paid maternity leave. Some people save 6 months to take out later, school holidays etc. At the most you pay £90 a month, all meals included. Today we had sunday roast, potatoes, 8 different vegetables and fruit for lunch. It was fantastic as usual, cooked freshly. People choose to put their children there, the teachers are often highly educated (I’ve done 4 years at uni + various courses over the years. Where I work, we’ve all done sign language and we use it every day. Our very youngest who can’t yet talk can sign simple things and make themselves understood.
We spend many hours outdoors every day, they can climb trees, cycle or play football. We cook outside sometimes, and spend time in the forest. Yes, even the youngest.

I bloody love my job, and you are very welcome to visit us (which people from abroad actually has done over the years). 🇸🇪
They have a great time, and the parents are very happy. Also, where I am now there are hardly any kids left by 4 o’clock. Many parents can afford to work part time, because it’s so cheap to keep their children at nursery. So we all get the best of both worlds.

toomuchlaundry · 27/10/2021 18:21

Is the general cost of living higher in Sweden too?

mugandspoon · 27/10/2021 18:22

@FatCatThinCat

"And I bet they're grateful for it. I certainly was when my DS got to start nursery in Sweden despite me being a SAHM. He went for that very reason, to learn the language and be fluent by the time he started school."

Sadly, not everyone is, and the ones who need it the most are normally the ones that are the hardest to convince. Educated people like you appreciate it, but uneducated people more often prefer to keep their children at home, which means that they may start school without any previous preschool.

It's the same thing in the UK - I worked with such issues for many years, and it was, unfortunately, impossible to make some people make use of the free 15 hours after 3. They were disadvantaged.

Winterlights1 · 27/10/2021 18:22

About 1/3 of the children are there from 8.45-12.15.