Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

@sw1v

“A quick google would have given you the stats : 50.5 percent of one-year-olds attended preschool, 90.6 and 94.0 percent respectively of two- and three-year-olds and 95.3 percent of all four- and five-year-olds according to the statistics database of the Swedish National Agency for Education. May 2021”

Thanks. There you go then... it’s true!

This doesn’t say they’re in full time though. Mine were in 3 days a week at that age, so I still went out and about with them the other 2 days.

vajingleberry

“But I can’t help feeling I’d kick off over there if the vibe was they wanted me to put my baby in a day centre.

What I’m saying is, if I lived in a society where over 90% of 2 year-olds were in full-time daycare, then I would probably have felt compelled to do the same (even though I didn’t actually want to).

Which is it?
Can't really be both.“

The truth is, I don’t know. If I’d had to put them in full-time, I think that would have made me (personally-speaking) utterly miserable, but then, if everyone’s telling you how wonderful it is for them and it’s generally considered a cultural norm or progress for the good of society, then maybe you convince yourself of that? I don’t know - I’m sure it is good for them in many ways. It just wouldn’t be my instinctive choice, ultimately. Although some Swedish people on here have confirmed it is possible to use daycare very part-time, so perhaps it’s not quite as binary a choice as I thought. Age 2 is still very young though, in my opinion. I had 4 children and they occupied each other without all this. So hard to say because obviously you internalise the norms of the culture where you have your children (or grow up in).

@sw1v

I am not making a thinly-veiled dig at anyone. I just believe in personal choice. It’s an interesting discussion (well, to me anyway) - why are things do different in Sweden. How much is personal choice and how much is state intervention (direct or indirect). This is AIBU and I’m happy to be U, but I thought this was the place for debates?

I was surprised by the stats, that’s all. If anyone has insights, then please share.

Why are over 90% if 2 year-olds in daycare in Sweden when they are not in the U.K.? What is different and what underlies this?

Without state intervention, there is no true personal choice, sw1v Only if you're rich enough to afford it.

From the foundation course of Feminism school.

@sw1v

vajingleberry

“But I can’t help feeling I’d kick off over there if the vibe was they wanted me to put my baby in a day centre.

What I’m saying is, if I lived in a society where over 90% of 2 year-olds were in full-time daycare, then I would probably have felt compelled to do the same (even though I didn’t actually want to).

Which is it?
Can't really be both.“

The truth is, I don’t know. If I’d had to put them in full-time, I think that would have made me (personally-speaking) utterly miserable, but then, if everyone’s telling you how wonderful it is for them and it’s generally considered a cultural norm or progress for the good of society, then maybe you convince yourself of that? I don’t know - I’m sure it is good for them in many ways. It just wouldn’t be my instinctive choice, ultimately. Although some Swedish people on here have confirmed it is possible to use daycare very part-time, so perhaps it’s not quite as binary a choice as I thought. Age 2 is still very young though, in my opinion. I had 4 children and they occupied each other without all this. So hard to say because obviously you internalise the norms of the culture where you have your children (or grow up in).

But full time is 15 hours a week, and that's if you want it.

@Stealhsquirrelnutkin you’re just making this up as you go along. The policy is mandatory separation from age one, parents often are not at all happy about it, and they risk having their child benefit removed if they don’t comply.

It was part of a package of laws that also included creating “harsher punishment zones” in ethnic minority majority areas, where the legal penalty for certain crimes is twice as high as it would be if you committed the same crime in a different neighbourhood.

It’s a discriminatory law, based on the belief that ethnic minority children are a threat to society.

Please click through and read any of the articles and reports I’ve posted. I don’t understand why you’d just make something up in your head and insist it’s true.

the idea refugees should be grateful they’re forced to put their child in ‘education’ for 25 hours per week from age one, because the state believes they’re an enemy within and a threat to society, is peak white obliviousness.

First of all, it IS education, by well educated teachers. You should come and see for yourself, I suspect you’d be surprised.. And 5hrs a day is a great idea for immigrants, they get to learn the language from day one and the social culture in the country they live in. And often help their parents to learn the language, so they quicker can get a job and make friends in their new country. It’s a win win situation in the long run.

The last bit, just no.

@Lunde I initially posted that of the OP wanted to get angry about something, she should look at Denmark where this policy actually exists (for certain stigmatised communities) rather than imagining something about Sweden.

Then several posters decided to insist, against all evidence, that a widely documented and criticised policy is actually something completely different.

@Stealhsquirrelnutkin you’re just making this up as you go along. The policy is mandatory separation from age one, parents often are not at all happy about it, and they risk having their child benefit removed if they don’t comply.

No, you are wittering away about something happening in Denmark when the rest of us are discussing Sweden.

@Winterlights1 it doesn’t matter how great you think it is, when parents from one minority group are forced to put their one-year-olds in full-time education/group care - while all other parents have freedom of choice - that’s discriminatory. There is no non-racist argument for denying only those parents choice.

Egentligen tror jag att du kommer att upptäcka att vårt lands barnomsorg är överlägsen genom att vi får lysande subventioner så att vi inte tar hela slaget karriärmässigt. Vår pappa- och mammaledighet delas också mellan båda föräldrarna!

The truth is, I don’t know. If I’d had to put them in full-time, I think that would have made me (personally-speaking) utterly miserable

@sw1v full-time can mean 15hrs a week, either divided by 3 days or 4 days a week. Honestly, they get the best of both worlds and it works very well. And if you want to take a day off from those 15hrs, it’s absolutely fine. But, it doesn’t happen often.

@Stealhsquirrelnutkin

I don't see how the Danish provision of child care to immigrant children is different from the UK sure start programme, "targeted at parents and children under the age of four living in the most disadvantaged areas. Sure Start projects deliver a wide variety of services which are designed to support children's learning skills, health and well-being, and social and emotional development."

@Stealhsquirrelnutkin your post, which I responded to, is quite clearly about Denmark.

I guess I should take your attempted backtrack as evidence you realise you were wrong.

OP i get what you mean.

I personally think that kids are better off exclusively cared for by a parent until the age of about 3 and then some light socialisation at nursery; that is what i chose for my child.

However in the UK I already felt like a bit of an outlier as cost of living is so high and the with the taxation system, double incomes are seen as necessary.

I think the type of feminism we have in the UK is seen mostly through a capitalist lens where everyone must be productive tax payer, earning lots to spend lots.

I like being productive, but not in spending lots of money and paying lots of taxes way.

I prefer contributing to society in a different way, not just how in the way a bunch of Tories want us to.

@SparrowNest

It’s not that ’I think’ I know, I’ve worked in Sweden for over 20 years (have Danish colleagues). Full time is not necessarily full time, here it is between. 8.45-12.14, 4 days a week..

@HarleyBarnes

Egentligen tror jag att du kommer att upptäcka att vårt lands barnomsorg är överlägsen genom att vi får lysande subventioner så att vi inte tar hela slaget karriärmässigt. Vår pappa- och mammaledighet delas också mellan båda föräldrarna!

Easy for you to say.

OP, you feel this way, as you are perfectly right to do so, but there is a likelihood you wouldn’t if you were born and raised in Sweden and were raised in that culture of childcare yourself.

How are school holidays covered, or is that part of parental leave?

@Winterlights1 you responded to my post which was about Denmark. My initial point in this thread was that childcare is not compulsory in Sweden, but a policy similar to what the OP describes does exist in Denmark - but only for ethnic minority children.

If you’re just talking about Sweden then apologies, we’ve got our wires crossed.

I think a lot of comments here stem from people’s need to justify why they chose to be SAHM and noone has to do that. The decision is so personal.

@HarleyBarnes

Egentligen tror jag att du kommer att upptäcka att vårt lands barnomsorg är överlägsen genom att vi får lysande subventioner så att vi inte tar hela slaget karriärmässigt. Vår pappa- och mammaledighet delas också mellan båda föräldrarna!

Förmodligen omöjligt att förstå om man inte upplevt fördelarna själv.

@sw1v

“A quick google would have given you the stats : 50.5 percent of one-year-olds attended preschool, 90.6 and 94.0 percent respectively of two- and three-year-olds and 95.3 percent of all four- and five-year-olds according to the statistics database of the Swedish National Agency for Education. May 2021”

Thanks. There you go then... it’s true!

If that’s the case it’s a damn sight healthier to have children in full time daycare whilst parents are at work, than the situation in this country where there’s still the situation that it’s not ‘worthwhile’ for a lot of people on benefits to work

@SparrowNest ok, I’ve read back now..

@HarleyBarnes

Egentligen tror jag att du kommer att upptäcka att vårt lands barnomsorg är överlägsen genom att vi får lysande subventioner så att vi inte tar hela slaget karriärmässigt. Vår pappa- och mammaledighet delas också mellan båda föräldrarna!

That's a big thumbs up from me!

@toomuchlaundry

I wonder what the difference in total tax paid over a lifetime compares between Sweden and England. This subsidised childcare etc has to be paid by higher tax rates. So as a percentage of income it would be interesting to see whether we are actually better off, it just doesn’t seem that way when paying high childcare costs

It's not just tax, it's the overall package. My husband is a scientist and we lived just outside London before moving to Sweden. His salary was pretty much the same in both jobs, seeing as it was the same project just a change of location. His tax went up moving to Sweden, but other costs went down. In the UK we rented a 2 bed terraced house, in Sweden for a quarter of the monthly cost we bought a massive 5 bedroom house in the middle of nowhere. So we felt a lot wealthier than we did in the UK even though our income was around the same. Now we've relocated to a detached 3 bed in a small town, because the isolation of the Swedish forest freaked me out, and our costs have gone up but we're still in a much better financial position than we were in the UK.

YABU and very stupid op