Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

Uk has one of the youngest ages of sending kids to school.. Woooo oh no!

I'm half-Swedish. And you've got it all quite wrong. I would have loved to have had kids there, they way their system works - but life wanted differently. The UK is a complete waste land in terms of childcare and parental rights in comparison. I'm surprised you don't know this.

@sw1v

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

You are not forced to send your kids to daycare in Sweden. Children in Sweden do not start nurseries until the age of 1 - there is no provision for babies as most people use some/all of their 16 months parental leave

Most people work as it is the norm of society here and most people use their right to low cost, publicly funded daycare which is capped at 3% of income up to a max of £120 per month

If you want to stay home - you just stay home. But many people use their legal right to work part time until school age

[quote SparrowNest]If you want to get angry at something, have a look at Denmark where daycare is genuinely compulsory from age 1 for migrant children living in deprived areas. For indoctrination purposes, by a state that basically hates them.

www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html[/quote]
i think you will find its to teach them about democracy and equality and ensure they can speak danish , not really much of an ask for any person that wants to claim asylum in another country whichever one it is ,

denmark is merely tightening up its polices , its a shame the uk doesnt follow their stance and then we wouldnt have boatloads of them arriving every week to get put up in hotels and costing a load of money .
much of the uk is fed up of them coming here so lets not pretend its denmark that doesnt really want them , italy ,spain greece , france , hungary , poland , they dont want them all arriving either , its just denmark that is getting tough about it ,

i do think the stance should be obviously different for genuine refugees such as syrian and afghnaistan ,
but a lot of these migrants we now get are from countries that arent war torn , have no conflict , they just want to come to europe because these countries are better than their own

MarshmallowSwede - it wouldn’t occur to me that Sweden has communist tendencies .

Perhaps a more communal rather than individualistic attitude to society? Would you say that’s true?

The UK encourages women to stay at home and have no career prospects, so I know where I'd rather be.

I get what the OP is saying - some posters are being obtuse. Essentially she's saying she wouldn't manage well living in Sweden as it's part of the culture (right word?) To work and heavily use childcare. That's her opinion and a reflection of her personal values and that's fine.

Also I've really enjoyed reading about Sweden on this thread. There's clearly a lot we could learn from Sweden in terms of childcare provision. I must admit I'm very envious of the £150 a month for a full time place! However, such a fantastic system does come with high taxes, which I think we can agree would not go down well in the UK. Something needs to be done about cc affordability here - and the funding nurseries get from the gov

Perhaps a more communal rather than individualistic attitude to society? Would you say that’s true?

That is absolutely correct and part of the reason childcare and all child related stuff is so heavily subsidised. Children are seen as very much the communities children. The idea that a child misses out on anything because their parents can't afford it is abhorent. They are all OUR children.

@HarrietsChariot

Sweden has that system because they are closer to Russia and are more influenced by old USSR policies where state-enforced childcare was obligatory (both to indoctrinate children from birth and to free up the parents to work for the stae). It shares a border with Finland who it previously ruled, and of course Finland fought with the Germans in WWII against the USSR (losing), so it's no surprise the Swedes are still influenced in this way.

Except schooling wasn't compulsory until the age of 7. Oh and the fact that in 1981 only 54% percent of 7 yos had any formal preschool experience. The fact that there were childcare options from very early on and some people had to use them to keep working(especially in some jobs where you couldn't just quit) is a completely different story.

So not only did you make a massive leap, it's a very incorrect leap.

@sw1v

MarshmallowSwede - it wouldn’t occur to me that Sweden has communist tendencies .

Perhaps a more communal rather than individualistic attitude to society? Would you say that’s true?

Maybe more communal

But Swedes find it shocking that Brits put babies into nursery/ childminder from 3 months and that men are not required to take parental leave.

You sound like a bitter person who hates Sweden and smokes drugs You really do sound Swedish!

@ArthurTudor

I get what the OP is saying - some posters are being obtuse. Essentially she's saying she wouldn't manage well living in Sweden as it's part of the culture (right word?) To work and heavily use childcare. That's her opinion and a reflection of her personal values and that's fine.

Also I've really enjoyed reading about Sweden on this thread. There's clearly a lot we could learn from Sweden in terms of childcare provision. I must admit I'm very envious of the £150 a month for a full time place! However, such a fantastic system does come with high taxes, which I think we can agree would not go down well in the UK. Something needs to be done about cc affordability here - and the funding nurseries get from the gov

See - but it is not compulsory

I was a SAHM in Sweden

I don't think anyone has mentioned either that some kommuns in Sweden pay the 'nursery money' allocated for your child to you instead of the nursery if you decide to not send them to nursery. This is in response to an increase in parents wanting to keep their children at home.

@TheExtraGuineaPig

If they're trying to force babies in but have only managed 50% then they're not very good at it are they?

That was my first thought too!

Does it not strike you as at all possible that Swedish women are choosing to work after having children in such large numbers because of the state-subsidised, very high-quality childcare available?

And this ^

@FatCatThinCat

I don't think anyone has mentioned either that some kommuns in Sweden pay the 'nursery money' allocated for your child to you instead of the nursery if you decide to not send them to nursery. This is in response to an increase in parents wanting to keep their children at home.

Actually that was abolished in 2016

@sw1v

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

Having subsidised childcare - that is, fully subsidised childcare - is the most important feminist issue of today. Without it, women can never be independent from, say, abusive men, or utilise their full potential. This country, the not so very great Britain, is incredibly far behind on this issue. It's not just Sweden, or any of the other Scandi-countries - but so many other European countries have similar systems.

Do you not believe in equality between the sexes, OP? Do you think that men are inherently better than women? You talk about having a choice - but the UK system gives you anything but. It limits it, stopping women from continuing their hard earned careers due to the cost of childcare, opting out of the workforce entirely. It's an enabler of child poverty. Do you know anything at all about these issues - I'm curious? Do you travel or read?

Choice is what EPITOMISES the Scandi system - and this is exactly what your other thread and you seem to be missing. Don't take your news from Mumsnet.

Where I live in the UK most 2 year olds are in daycare at least 4 days a week. Certainly 80% plus of 3 year olds are. It's an affluent area with well educated women who have professional careers, housing is expensive so there are few SAHP of babies over 1.

I look at Sweden as a model of excellent provision. A high level of well paid parental leave, incentives for men to take some as well as women, affordable widely available good quality childcare.

@Hemskis

I'm Swedish and this is not true. Childcare is good quality and subsidied by the government to enable you to work. If you are unemployed you are entitled to a certain number of hours. Nursery hours are restricted to your work hours so you can't pay extra to have some free time. Childcare staff are well educated. Parental leave is excellent and often shared by both parents and children generally don't attend nursery when younger than a year.

You can be a stay at home mum if you like, noone will stop you, but it's not a common choice.

Sounds great

Actually that was abolished in 2016

Has it? I must have slept through that bit.

chaosrabbitland - my husband came to the U.K. as a refugee at age 2 (not by boat). I think it would have been very strange if, after all that, he was required to be removed from his mother and put in a daycentre 9-5 or whatever the hours may be as some sort of state policy. That’s too heavy-handed for my liking and would be very odd - not to mention highly distressing- for many people. He had plenty of opportunity to become ‘Anglicised’ when he started school and I would say he is very much an asset to the U.K, as are the majority of immigrants.

@sw1v

I don’t mean ‘forced’ as such, obviously. What I mean is, if 90-95% of two year-olds are in full-time daycare, then that’s a very small minority who aren’t. Your child would be an outlier if not in daycare and this alone would be a compelling reason to send them, regardless of finances. I mean, I don’t know what the stats are for home-schooled children in the U.K - a few percent maybe? Most people don’t think to home school (I know I didn’t) because it’s not really the norm. Parents who home school are seen as kind of opting out of the normal cycle of things and I wouldn’t want to feel like that with a two-year old if I opted out of full-time daycare.

It’s probably not quite the same thing at all, but just trying to explain.

Yes but I home educate (and work, DH is part time too) and there's no shortage of other HE kids to play with even though we live in a ruralish area. I think you're right that there's a few %, certainly less than the 7% at private school but it's still enough that lack of peers wouldn't be a reason to go to school in most areas. So I don't buy that in Sweden you're under pressure to do nursery from a critical mass of numbers.

(Mine & my dh family are scattered across globe ) Have some younger relatives that as migrants lived in Denmark - they speak about 4 languages fluently. Giving young children the opportunity at an early age to get the best educational & social stimulation especially when they may come from deprived backgrounds - we use to have sure start & nurseries etc to help parents & children in similar circumstances its a shame that we still don't.

FatCatThinCat

"I don't think anyone has mentioned either that some kommuns in Sweden pay the 'nursery money' allocated for your child to you instead of the nursery if you decide to not send them to nursery. This is in response to an increase in parents wanting to keep their children at home."

Lunde:
"Actually that was abolished in 2016"

@FatCatThinCat is correct in that this still exists in about 40 % of councils (vårdnadsbidrag) - the state funded one (vårdbidrag) was abolished in 2016.

However, it is also correct that this is to a large extent used by immigrant families, which leads to their children not learning Swedish. It is one reason why there are now proposals for a policy in line with the Danish one, that children who do not speak sufficient Swedish at x age will have to attend preschool.

@CeliaCeliaCelia

I'm not sure about Sweden but certainly in Denmark, which has similarly lavish childcare provision, it is very very unusual to work part time. (It is true that full time often means finishing work at about 4pm though). No one I know would take their toddler out for a day to hang out with friends - all your friends are working full-time, like you, and all their kids are in daycare!

I also think it can be difficult for people living in the UK, which is a diverse society which highly values personal autonomy, to appreciate how powerful social norms can be in countries like Denmark and Sweden

I love the idea of most people working full time, but finishing at 4pm

That sounds so much better than "Mr with his big job" and "Ms who does all the donkey work because he's too important"

Quite a few people on MN don't like the idea of children being in nurseries from a young age, if they have to use childcare they would prefer childminders or grandparents, but many choose to be SAHM (I know some don't have the choice due to the cost of childcare but many parents still choose to be SAHM or at least part-time).

Obviously, OP is one of these people. I went back to work when DS was 1 but only went back 3 days a week, not because of daycare costs, but because I wanted to spend time with him. Many of my friends were the same. There were plenty of activities available for us to do too.

I would not have liked it if societal pressure was that I should return full-time whether there was cheap day care or not.

OP may have used the wrong words but everyone mocking her for the stats, but the stats were pretty accurate.