Thank god we don’t live in Sweden. AIBU?

[sw1v]

I was just reading in another thread that in Sweden, you are basically forced to send your babies into day care settings at the age of 1. Apparently 50% of 1 year olds are in full- time nurseries (very long days inc. parents’ commutes) and 95% by the time they are 2! Plus (unlike in the U.K.) there is apparently no minimum ratio for staff to children.

But what if you are a mother who simply doesn’t want to do this (or father)? I personally, would hate this. So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

AIBU?

@sw1v

Somebody on another thread just quoted these stats today.

Oh well, if some random on mumsnet says it's true then it must be. 🙄

I think what you're saying is that you're thankful that you don't live in a country which is renowned for feminist, family friendly policies, because all the women taking advantage of said policies would leave your kids without anyone to play with.

It's an odd thought process but hey ho, it takes all sorts to make a world.

@sw1v

I am hardly xenophobic. And did I read someone calling me a Brexiteer earlier in the thread? What’s that got to do with it? I couldn’t be more anti-Brexit, trust me on that. I’m not even British! And even if I was, I’d still wish Brexit never happened. I’m simply saying, it would not suit me to live in a society where putting your two-year-old in full-time day care was seen as the optimum lifestyle choice for all. Because given the choice, that is not something I would actually want and I know I’m not the only one.

It’s fine to not want that set up

Although childcare is very expensive in the U.K. which isn’t that great for women

But still, I get you’d not want it to be the norm

Yes well, it’s often said that Sweden has the highest quality of life and highest satisfaction levels etc. Far be it from me to dispute that. I’m simply saying, this aspect of Swedish society would not suit me personally because I don’t want society or the government insinuating or ‘structuring’ what I should be doing with my child at the age of one or two, thank you very much. There’s enough time for that when they go to school.

@rainbowunicorn, you might want to read the full thread, or a few more posts, and you'll find that the OP's stats are perfectly correct (not to mention that at least 15 posters have written the same pointless thing as you!).

@Siepie is basically correct. In the UK, there are strong incentives for parents to choose that one parent does not work following child birth. The tax system, society and culture backs this up. In Sweden, there are very strong incentives for both parents to return to work as soon as their maternity/paternity days are gone. The tax system, society and culture backs that up.

Both could be argued to 'force' people in one direction.

Who said anything about nursery is the optimum lifestyle choice Op?

There are a plethora of reasons why a Swedish woman would choose to put her child in nursery. And she is not forced to do anything.

We actually have many options and choices to live a good life. None of it involves being forced to do anything. And things like subsidized nursery are there to help mothers. Some women are single mothers and this also helps single mothers be able to still work. So there is a reason why we have this so that women are not forced out of work. We feel that having a child should not punish a woman who has a career and if she is a single mother then she needs extra support for child care as well. So this is just another reason why we have this.

We just try to do things that make our society function well. I know Sweden is not perfect in many ways. It’s not for everyone.

I don’t see why you see children being in nursery as being bad for Sweden. I really don’t get it. Of all the things to feel that Swedish society isn’t for you I would never think it would be the generous childcare services as one of them.

We bond with our children and spend time with them. Swedish men often take paternity leave and it’s normal to see fathers on paternity leave doing all of their childcare because the mother is back at work. And fathers taking the toddlers to nursery as well.

Again.. this is what works for Sweden. It doesn’t have to work anywhere else. But you probably would understand why we have this if you spent time in Sweden and lived amongst Swedes. Not to brag.. but our country is very nice.

Disclaimer- Sweden is not perfect, we also have crime and problems all nations have. (Only because someone will bring this up).

Sweden has that system because they are closer to Russia and are more influenced by old USSR policies where state-enforced childcare was obligatory (both to indoctrinate children from birth and to free up the parents to work for the stae). It shares a border with Finland who it previously ruled, and of course Finland fought with the Germans in WWII against the USSR (losing), so it's no surprise the Swedes are still influenced in this way.

@TheExtraGuineaPig

If they're trying to force babies in but have only managed 50% then they're not very good at it are they?

Made me lol 😂

@HarrietsChariot

Sweden has that system because they are closer to Russia and are more influenced by old USSR policies where state-enforced childcare was obligatory (both to indoctrinate children from birth and to free up the parents to work for the stae). It shares a border with Finland who it previously ruled, and of course Finland fought with the Germans in WWII against the USSR (losing), so it's no surprise the Swedes are still influenced in this way.

Indoctrinate was the word I was looking for in my earlier comment!

@HarrietsChariot

Sweden has that system because they are closer to Russia and are more influenced by old USSR policies where state-enforced childcare was obligatory (both to indoctrinate children from birth and to free up the parents to work for the stae). It shares a border with Finland who it previously ruled, and of course Finland fought with the Germans in WWII against the USSR (losing), so it's no surprise the Swedes are still influenced in this

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

What drugs are you on? We are nothing like Russia. And nothing like russian culture or communism.

Call me when your country is continually rated high on quality of life and safe to live and good for women and chidlren.

When has Russia ever been on that list.

You sound like a bitter person who hates Sweden and smokes drugs. Go have some coffee and come back when you actually know what you’re talking about.

It’s very easy to hate Sweden when we do so much so well!

@sw1v

Yes well, it’s often said that Sweden has the highest quality of life and highest satisfaction levels etc. Far be it from me to dispute that. I’m simply saying, this aspect of Swedish society would not suit me personally because I don’t want society or the government insinuating or ‘structuring’ what I should be doing with my child at the age of one or two, thank you very much. There’s enough time for that when they go to school.

Don’t you think the UK society is insinuating something by making childcare so expensive that people on lower income can’t afford it? Not being able to afford to work is surely worse for women over all, and society.

MarshmallowSwede - Thankyou for your posts. I actually live in a part of London where there are many Swedish as there is the Swedish school locally. It all sounds very organised and harmonious, compared to the U.K. But I can’t help feeling I’d kick off over there if the vibe was they wanted me to put my baby in a day centre.

So how is it acceptable for ‘the state’ to be interfering in people’s personal spheres and family lives by making this ‘the societal norm.’ Is it because they are a high tax society and want more tax? Is this it? Well, it seems like an infringement on personal liberties to me (without wanting to sound too dramatic).

That's not how democratic states work. They govern with the consent of the people. They enact the people's will (some of the people, on most issues, yes it's complicated when you get down to individual issues and policies). If most people hate what they're doing, they vote them out. Simplistically, it's the societal norms that drive the actions of the state, not the other way around.

So were this true and were you Swedish, the people you'd need to be trying to convince of your objections to accepted social norms, would your fellow societal members - your friends, neighbours and family.

You're confusing 'the state' with 'unelected authoritarian dictatorship'.

Every culture influences you. If you’re British growing up in Britain your government also influences you.

It’s absolutely nothing wrong with being Swedish and how we are raised.

We are indoctrinated to want to keep Sweden safe and clean and to want everyone who lives in Sweden to have a good life.

I’ve never heard such nonsense … Swedish is like communist Russia.

Just say you hate Sweden and go. No need
For this.

@sw1v

Where are you seeing full time In those stats?

May be that some pre schoolers go in for a few mornings a week etc

I haven't read the whole thread, so it's probably been mentioned but there's been a fun 'light entertainment' series on R4 recently, made by a British comedian / writer who married a Swede, moved there and had a baby. The nurseries thing was covered in the first series.

Sweden is a free place. We do not have a dictator. Our government is not forcing citizens or residents to do anything.

We want everyone in Sweden, citizens and foreigners who move to Sweden to have a good life.

I find it terrible that people think Sweden is communist because we have child care for all that is subsidized? I’ve never heard such ridiculous nonsense ever.

And being geographically close to Finland means what? Finland is not Russia and I believe Finnish would be very offended to be told they are communist. Finland is always rated highly for happiness and quality of life.

What communist nation is on this list? It really shows the attitude some people have towards Sweden and I don’t know why.

God - I'd love to live in Sweden. I think high tax, excellent public services are definitely the way to go. They seem to me to run things so much better than we do here.

@sw1v

Yes well, it’s often said that Sweden has the highest quality of life and highest satisfaction levels etc. Far be it from me to dispute that. I’m simply saying, this aspect of Swedish society would not suit me personally because I don’t want society or the government insinuating or ‘structuring’ what I should be doing with my child at the age of one or two, thank you very much. There’s enough time for that when they go to school.

Well Sweden has 6 as compulsory school age so technically a parent could keep a kid at home longer than here in the UK.

And 76% of children 0-4 are in some form of childcare . It's not as high as Sweden but affordability and accessibility is the main reason why.

“Don’t you think the UK society is insinuating something by making childcare so expensive that people on lower income can’t afford it?”

Possibly, but then I don’t think British governments are that coherent to even have a policy in this area, to be honest.

I wish I lived in Sweden ❤️

Sweden has that system because they are closer to Russia and are more influenced by old USSR policies where state-enforced childcare was obligatory (both to indoctrinate children from birth and to free up the parents to work for the stae). It shares a border with Finland who it previously ruled, and of course Finland fought with the Germans in WWII against the USSR (losing), so it's no surprise the Swedes are still influenced in this

This place is utterly batshit sometimes. Sweden is nothing like Russia. Jesus wept.

@MarshmallowSwede
@HarrietsChariot

It is correct that Swedish policies are very much based on socialism, or communism if you wish (I'll leave out the exact name of USSR, but it didn't sound as if that was the main thing). If you read modern history you'll find a lot of evidence of close ties between the Swedish and East German education systems for example.

Marshmallow, I completely agree that there are many, many positive factors about the Swedish system, but there are issues too. You - in my view - appear to see it with slightly rose-tinted glasses. Do you not see it as a problem at all that many parents choose to put siblings of newborns in preschool 40 hours per week - since it's offered to them? Or that the ratio of staff to children is worse than in the UK, mainly because of the reduced cost ('the max cost') introduced about 20 years ago? Or that a not insignificant number of children spend 50-55 hours per week in preschool, actually forced to, for example children of single mothers who have to work full-time..? And have you not read any of the appeals from exhausted preschool staff over the past 5ish years pleading for more staff and fewer children per group..?

(The situation is very different in different parts of Sweden, so not all will see everything of course.)

And people arguing that preschools are staffed by well educated teachers should be aware that there is a massive lack of such people. Although in theory, almost all staff are expected to have such an education, in reality, 39.5 % (stats from 2019, a decreasing proportion since 2014) of staff were educated to that level. (They may have other educations of course.)

@HarrietsChariot

Sweden has that system because they are closer to Russia and are more influenced by old USSR policies where state-enforced childcare was obligatory (both to indoctrinate children from birth and to free up the parents to work for the stae). It shares a border with Finland who it previously ruled, and of course Finland fought with the Germans in WWII against the USSR (losing), so it's no surprise the Swedes are still influenced in this way.

My jaw has dropped at this. Just wow.

@MarshmallowSwede

Every culture influences you. If you’re British growing up in Britain your government also influences you.

It’s absolutely nothing wrong with being Swedish and how we are raised.

We are indoctrinated to want to keep Sweden safe and clean and to want everyone who lives in Sweden to have a good life.

I’ve never heard such nonsense … Swedish is like communist Russia.

Just say you hate Sweden and go. No need
For this.

There's a lot of svartsjuka in this thread