Stop teaching child that it’s okay to refer to someone’s skin colour

[CannotThinkOfName]

Calling someone - a random person you don’t know - black is racist. I don’t care if your personal friend or your family member or someone else you’re close to doesn’t mind being referred to like this because they’re speaking for themselves as individuals.

Pointing out someone by skin colour is rude at best and at worst a form of racism. This is because

1. Skin colour that I was born with is brown.
2. Skin colour that I was born with does not define anyone. It doesn’t define your traits, characteristics, hobbies, goals, ambitions or anything else that truly defines who a person is.
3. It’s a form of racial harassment to start bothering someone at random and bringing up their race and colour for no real reason and singling them out by it.

I’ve seen people say there’s nothing wrong with their child referring to people by skin because they are just “saying what they see”. This is wrong because as a child, I never ever saw myself as “black” or described myself “black”. This is taught as a way to refer to people, it’s not simply a child “saying what they see”.

Please stop teaching your child that it’s okay to refer to people that you don’t know this way. If you do know someone and they’ve told you to call them black then that’s their choice as an individual. They don’t speak for anyone else but themselves.

If you don’t know someone’s name, - just ask them what their name is and call them by their actual name. Not “that black girl” or “the black woman” or “that black lady”.

SrownBkinGirl, you presume way too much about me. You have no idea of my race or where I come from. Your reply just goes to show some people will really reach to find offense where none was intended. There is absolutely nothing wrong or hard to understand about me believing that black people are beautiful. If you don't like that I suggest you find a way to deal with it because you will not be "shaming" me to believe or say otherwise.

fashionSOS, thank you, very well stated. It is sad that for as far as humanity has evolved, we still cannot manage to celebrate and appreciate each other's differences. I, for one am very glad we don't all look the same, or live the same way because that would be very boring.

It is also very sad that some people believe that being anything other than Caucasian is something too shameful to mention, because that view only perpetuates the problem and prevents forward momentum.

I have encountered confusion and disbelief by saying I believe black is beautiful, and that is something one should be ashamed of, IMO.

I've only read op's posts and I didn't get what she was trying to say at first as personally I found the op confusing. However, now I've read her side of this conversation saying that the term black only exists because it was part of the othering between races borne of the vested interests of the slave traders and as such is unacceptable. I totally get that. It does not accurately describe colour, race or country of origin. Therefore be informed and use it with caution. I fail to see how anyone can disagree with that.

However, meanwhile, the word since its creation has taken on a life of its own and has been adopted and come to mean something else for various groups of people, so some people happily use it with its modern meaning because to them the original reason for the creation of the term is not the important part.

Both these things can be simultaneously true. Words once created evolve, there are innumerable examples of this in English and every language.

Slave history is appalling and in historical terms relatively recent, its effects ripple on down the generations and if a term created by its protaganists is tainted for those who feel its evolution into modern parlance is not enough to wash it clean then that's a good enough argument for me.

@SrownBkinGirl

It's easy for people to say accept being called Black when they aren't Black, meanwhile they hate being called something they're actually part of.

It's easy for you to say Black isn't a negative when you're not the one who's constantly reading or hearing people use the word Black as part of a negative thing in everyday conversations:

*Black sheep of the family

• Blackmail
• Black cloud
• Black Sunday
• Black mood
• Black heart
• Black market
• The black cat/dog curse
• Blackening someone's name... *Blacklist *Black soul *Blackballed *Black death *Pot calling the kettle Black *Black as sin, etc.

Even 'dark' is still used in a similar way but don't have as many words.

(Acknowledging @Blackisblackisblack because I stole part of this from you. Thanks for it.)

As a non-Black person, you don't know how it feels to see these things and be reminded that you're a Black person. No, to you, it's fine, it's all innocent, it's just a coincidence, doesn't mean anything. Actually, you don't even think about this because you rarely notice it. Why would you?

As a non-Black person, you give the platitude Black is beautiful, be proud of being Black (whatever the hell that means), yet on the other hand, you'll use Black as the opposite of beauty and white in the opposite way: white lie, white feather, white Knight, etc. Yes, it's so great. Why don't we switch colours?

I don't think a non-Black person should be telling a Black person the label they should or shouldn't accept. It's not up to you because you're not the one sharing the label with most things considered bad or evil. Even angels are all dressed in white. White is used as the symbol of purity, innocence, etc. Black is used as the symbol of doom, hell, Satan, demons, horror, etc.

I love the colour Black as a colour, it's one of my favourite colours to wear (I also have black hair) but please don't come into this conversation as a non-Black person essentially telling the people labelled "Black people" to suck it up and like it. If a Black person wants to be called Black, that's great. Nothing wrong with it.

This is a powerful post,

Whilst I don't agree with the OPs stance on not using the word black - I do agree agree with this post.

Not many people are actually “white” coloured, unless they are dead. There are many shades of peach, pink, cream, light brown, even much darker brown (Italians for example) but they all get labelled “white”.
My daughter is mixed race but very very pale. She wouldn’t be offended by the descriptor “white” because she is probably more white-looking than most “white” people, despite her being half East Asian. She has “red” hair. She’s not offended when people say she has red hair, even though it’s actually orange...Why does nobody say orange heeded?

*headed

[quote TirednWorried]@fashionSOS do what descriptor DO you want? Non-white and coloured are considered nonPC now, and we were told 'black' was the acceptable adjective. Now that is problematic? I dont want to gove offence by saying the wrong word, so please let us know how you wish to be described[/quote]
I'm not actually black - I'm jumping in with the opinion of someone who isn't black and who isn't white, because often those of us with different coloured skin are often forgotten. But we still exist, and we're still also reasonable people who won't take offence if you try your best, but don't quite get the right words out!

In an ideal world, people would refer to me as Chinese, because that's what I am. I appreciate not everyone can tell the difference between different East Asian ethnicities though, so I don't necessarily expect people to refer to me as Chinese if they don't know! As I said, if you get it wrong and pick the wrong one - for example, Filipino, Malaysian or Korean - I won't mind, as long as you correct yourself and move on when I point out I'm actually Chinese.

I would accept East Asian (from anyone), Asian (from Americans, because they include me in Asian over there, whereas in the UK, Asian is a synonym of Indian) or BAME (as a last resort). All of these terms are more general, and easier to use if you're not entirely sure what type of East Asian I am.

To me, coloured is a racist term, and I'd only accept it from someone extremely elderly who grew up with it as an acceptable word. Person of colour is quite trendy in the US, but I hate it, as I don't see how it's any different to coloured. I wouldn't take offence if it was used by an American though, as it's not meant to be offensive.

Intent is far more important than the actual words.

Someone using the right words can still mistreat you. Someone using the wrong words can wish you well. The trick is to really pay attention to the person behind the words.

@Ciaobaby92

SrownBkinGirl, you presume way too much about me. You have no idea of my race or where I come from. Your reply just goes to show some people will really reach to find offense where none was intended. There is absolutely nothing wrong or hard to understand about me believing that black people are beautiful. If you don't like that I suggest you find a way to deal with it because you will not be "shaming" me to believe or say otherwise.

Ironic. You've just presumed my post was (solely) about you. I saw your post long before it was quoted and I was only prompted to post after it was. Perhaps read the post of the person who quoted your post (and others' post who're similar to it) before assuming out of a guilty conscience. If that's what you're feeling, you can go find a way deal with it. You're not that important to me.

@CannotThinkOfName

“I do not think that referring to someone's skin colour is racist”.

It’s racist. It’s just that it’s a form of racism that has been normalised. People need to quit it.

I would disagree; it is not automatically racist - as other people have said.

I can be used in a racist manner, but it can also be used in a descriptive manner.

Stating that "People need to quit it" is the easiest way to get others on the defensive and comes across as quite arrogant. Who are you to (attempt to) instruct other in what they should / shouldn't do?

It is also very sad that some people believe that being anything other than Caucasian is something too shameful to mention, because that view only perpetuates the problem and prevents forward momentum.

There you go assuming it's shameful.

I have encountered confusion and disbelief by saying I believe black is beautiful, and that is something one should be ashamed of, IMO.

Missing the point. You can keep your sadness and pity. No one needs it from you.

My skin colour and that of everyone like me, brown is beautiful.
The colour, black, like our hair, is beautiful.
The culture of everyone who's considered a "black person" is beautiful.
Our languages are beautiful.
We are beautiful.

You think saying the Black race label is beautiful and pat yourself on the back for it when it has no meaning. I break mine down and tell you so that you know we know we are beautiful and exactly what's beautiful about us.

You just trot "Black is beautiful" and think you're the only one who knows it and everybody else doesn't agree, not thinking what does Black even mean and what are these people saying. Well there you go. We're probably saying the same thing, except mine is a clearer statement.

Although we have a similar fight in some ways, it's still not the same one, and it's more respectful to keep our own colour reclamation projects separate

Could you explain the colour reclamation projects aspect? How and why do you need to reclaim them, from whom?

I mean, I'd rather be the Chinese lady with the short hair than the fat one
This can be very offensive towards people who are not comfortable with their weight, so you may want to be more careful about this in the future

Caucasian is also not a thing anymore (unless you're actually from the Caucasus) , at least not in the UK. It slowly seems to die out in the US too.

If the community the OP lives in would refer to her as "the black lady" but to her white neighbor as "the lady", I can see how awkward that could feel. Because it still treats whiteness as the default. And even if you argued that the community might be majority-white, that kind of demographic can change with time, and in the meantime, the language is just setting one member of the community apart.

My children do notice different skin colors, because we have a growing Black population in our neighbourhood. When they speak out loud about details they notice, like skin color and hairstyles (my daughter admires her schoolmates' braids), I've tried to move the dialogue to their friend having brown skin, her and me having very pale peach skin (or white skin, but I'm usually corrected by my kids when I say that), that our tiny but several freckles are caused by melanin, and that her pal will have brown skin because her skin has more melanin. I'm hoping that kind of dialogue will allow acknowledgement of difference in appearance, which as far as I can tell is normal in children, without treating whiteness as the default.

@mustlovegin

Although we have a similar fight in some ways, it's still not the same one, and it's more respectful to keep our own colour reclamation projects separate

Could you explain the colour reclamation projects aspect? How and why do you need to reclaim them, from whom?

I mean, I'd rather be the Chinese lady with the short hair than the fat one
This can be very offensive towards people who are not comfortable with their weight, so you may want to be more careful about this in the future

I sincerely hope you're joking. I am fat and uncomfortable with my weight, that's why I used it as an example! I'd rather people refer to me by the colour of my skin than the size of my stomach! I don't feel emotional about my skin colour, but catch me on a bad day and describe me as fat, and I'll probably go cry in a toilet.

I don't mean a formal project. It's just there are certain words that people use to describe others in a negative way - and the best way to remove the power of those negative connotations is to own those words.

People typically use yellow in a racist way - so I often describe myself as yellow. I was very pissed off with MNHQ (and still am) for removing a post in which I described myself as yellow. It's my ethnicity and it's my word. If you're not East Asian, it's not a word for you to use, but if you are, you can take it back.

Similarly, I know a lot of Indian people who get called brown in a racist way. So they also describe themselves as brown - it's about taking back words other people have tried to turn into weapons in our lived experience.

SrownBiknGirl, apparently I am important enough that you picked out my post to pick apart out of the hundreds here and for that I am flattered. If anyone should have a guilty conscience it's you, for being so skeptical that I believe black is beautiful. Of all the things to pick out to be offended about...I actually find it hilarious.

I am fat and uncomfortable with my weight, that's why I used it as an example

I misunderstood what you were saying, apologies

You're missing the point and that's fine. I see you've not touched on any of the points I made besides claiming what's not real and that I'm offended as if you want it to stick, and frantically defending yourself from what? I don't know. Don't worry, you're not being accused of anything. If you read my posts here (you don't have to but it will help with your assumptions), you'll find I'm not offended but if that's what you hope to hold on to, fine by me.

Glad I gave you something to laugh about. Makes me happy.

@mustlovegin

I am fat and uncomfortable with my weight, that's why I used it as an example

I misunderstood what you were saying, apologies

No worries, reading too fast is easily done. Hopefully I make more sense to you now!

You lost with your last post. No actual point made. Just flinging insults. It came across a bit 'Backed into a corner, fight or flight! Quick, throw anything and hope it sticks'.
It came across a bit overwrought. Hence, I won't take offence.

Thank you to the OP and SrownBkinGirl (among others) for this really educational thread.

I can see it’s all quite problematic, and not many people deliberately want to cause offence.

I would say that when describing people it depends what the prevailing ethnicity is in the area. Eg, in a room full of white people, you may describe person A as being black. If, however, everyone was black except person B, you’d say “the white lady”.

Agree though that white/black descriptors are rarely accurate. Perhaps in time we will use a more helpful “shadier” vocabulary.

What still confuses me (probably not quite the right word) is what to use when we talk about a collective. Putting everyone together is problematic anyways due to the various ethnicities,cultures and countries of provenance.

Other variants are also considered offensive/not accurate enough.

I do agree that if an individual expresses a specific preference,for whatever reasons , it's dickish to ignore that . It's also a lot easier to comply.

But how do we navigate/apply that when talking about a group of people?

@SrownBkinGirl

You are black.. are you ashamed of it?

I know this was to the OP but again, this is a tired line and people keep trotting it out.

What is there to be ashamed and why is it the main thing that comes to mind when people say this? What does it mean to be Black and can you pinpoint, from that, what the OP is supposed to be ashamed of? Is it culture - which Black culture, and has OP said they're ashamed of that culture? Is it skin colour - has OP said they hate their colour? Is it other Black people - has OP said they don't like to be seen with others?

If you wanting to argue about people being ashamed, I'd say those who try to change their skin colour (whether darken or lighten), hair texture/length, nose, lips, cheekbones, etc are more ashamed of what they have and not happy with parts of who they are. Not someone whose only gripe is not liking a label given to them and hasn't said or shown that they don't like where they're from or any part of themselves.

There’s absolutely nothing to be ashamed of hence why I don’t get the issue here? They’re making an issue about something unnecessarily and I find it infuriating! Referring to someone as black or white isn’t racist!!

There are no literally black or literally white people, or red or yellow. These are social constructs. Often used in pejorative ways. The range of colour in human skin tones is amazing.

www.demilked.com/skin-tones-pantone-colors-photos-humanae-angelica-dass/

Why use skin colour as the main descriptor at all?