Stop teaching child that it’s okay to refer to someone’s skin colour

[CannotThinkOfName]

Calling someone - a random person you don’t know - black is racist. I don’t care if your personal friend or your family member or someone else you’re close to doesn’t mind being referred to like this because they’re speaking for themselves as individuals.

Pointing out someone by skin colour is rude at best and at worst a form of racism. This is because

1. Skin colour that I was born with is brown.
2. Skin colour that I was born with does not define anyone. It doesn’t define your traits, characteristics, hobbies, goals, ambitions or anything else that truly defines who a person is.
3. It’s a form of racial harassment to start bothering someone at random and bringing up their race and colour for no real reason and singling them out by it.

I’ve seen people say there’s nothing wrong with their child referring to people by skin because they are just “saying what they see”. This is wrong because as a child, I never ever saw myself as “black” or described myself “black”. This is taught as a way to refer to people, it’s not simply a child “saying what they see”.

Please stop teaching your child that it’s okay to refer to people that you don’t know this way. If you do know someone and they’ve told you to call them black then that’s their choice as an individual. They don’t speak for anyone else but themselves.

If you don’t know someone’s name, - just ask them what their name is and call them by their actual name. Not “that black girl” or “the black woman” or “that black lady”.

OP you find it racist and have acknowledged that there are people who don’t. Therefore by your own logic it is not racist and you cannot speak for all people!

Oh catch yourself on.

Many years ago I was in a meeting with someone who subsequently became my manager.

In conversation with a colleague she jumped through every hoop possible in describing this person to me so I would know who she was talking about. Eventually she said “ would it help if I said she was black?”

If helped enormously

Racist?

I agree with your position OP.
By saying ‘the black lady’ suggests that the standard is white and the person being discussed deviates from the standard. I don’t ever hear the ‘white lady’ as a descriptor.
I am white and I think it is racist.

" Like mentioned in the OP. One person doesn’t speak for everyone who happens to be grouped in with them "

So you don't speak for every one either... So stop it

Like mentioned in the OP. One person doesn’t speak for everyone who happens to be grouped in with them. Your boss is an individual and they apparently like having their skin colour mentioned and brought to attention. That’s their choice but you shouldn’t assume everyone is like that.
Race is a made up thing. It’s not real so I disagree with you that you’re just “seeing reality”. If no one taught you the label black to call people, you wouldn’t have known such a term existed. Calling people black is learned behaviour that people pick up from the environment they’re either raised in or live in as an adult

Well you’re just speaking for yourself as well aren’t you?

I completely agree with you that ‘race’ is a colonial construct. But still, out of that context a person’s skin colour is just an observable biological fact.

Race is a made up thing. It’s not real

Why is race not real? How is it made up?

But you are speaking for me. Why do you get to?

You are not the authority on how we should be referred to

Neither are you..

It depends on context, surely? If I am the only white woman in the room and someone asks “which one is Wimpole?”, then it would make sense to say “Wimpole is the white lady”. If it is a room of predominantly white people and I’m the only person in a yellow jumper, it would be more nati to say “Wimpole is the woman in the yellow jumper”. Surely?

Unfortunately there are times where people do have to be descriptive of others for many reasons however this doesn't automatically mean someone is racist. As you say in your op some individuals like to be referred to as black whereas you don't would you prefer people referred to you as a person with colour ?
As someone who has used many previously acceptable terms over the years not just concerning the colour of skin but also terms that were acceptable regarding disabilities I'll put my hands up high and say I personally don't have a clue as to what I can and cannot say with fear of offending people so I choose to not say anything.
So how would you like us to educate our children it's all good and well saying don't say this don't say that but what should we say ? Regarding my own children they are aware that everybody is different and they don't have any issues with their peers.

@Interrobanger

How do you describe someone who’s black without saying they’re black?

My boss is black and she told me she hates people saying things to her like ‘I don’t see colour, I just see the person’ because she finds it really gaslight-y. Like, come on, are you pretending to me you can’t see reality?

My old boss is black and used to ask me why some people have such a problem with saying she is black. She argued that it was a descriptive term as much as ‘that lady with glasses’ etc. I am in no way racist or prejudiced against anyone and would hate to think I’d upset someone by using a term previously thought of as acceptable. It is becoming increasingly difficult to identify what language can be used without causing offence.

I think it's fine to say " the black lady" if they are one in a group where all others aren't black. Just as you might say "the white lady" if they were the only white lady there.
🤷

As a police officer I have to take descriptions or describe people all the time. I would be pretty snookered if I wasn’t allowed to refer to race

This is the first time I have ever heard this, OP.
Someone’s skin colour is a descriptor.

Because just because it’s seen as a social construct doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, is what I meant to add. Is it not a bit like childhood in that sense, which is also a social construct.

As a pp said, the skin colour of a person is a observable fact.

You and your family don’t speak for me or anyone else but yourselves. You are not the authority on how we should be referred to. Just becauseyougive permission to your friends, family and acquaintances to call you black, doesn’t mean everyone else does.

The irony is that you are doing exactly this, just for the opposite.

@SprayedWithDettol

I agree with your position OP. By saying ‘the black lady’ suggests that the standard is white and the person being discussed deviates from the standard. I don’t ever hear the ‘white lady’ as a descriptor. I am white and I think it is racist.

You would hear 'the white lady' as a descriptor in a room full of black ladies though?

@SprayedWithDettol

I agree with your position OP. By saying ‘the black lady’ suggests that the standard is white and the person being discussed deviates from the standard. I don’t ever hear the ‘white lady’ as a descriptor. I am white and I think it is racist.

Surely that depends on the situation?

If there are 2 ladies stood together, one white, white of colour who are wearing similar clothes and have similar hair colours then surely if you don't know the person's name the only distinguishing thing is the colour of their skin.

If you are making an observation based on fact then how is it racist?

I wouldn't say this is racist either. I always find it funny when people get awkward about this sort of stuff. The descriptor is not being used in a derogatory way.

Imagine two people called Sam - one male one female how would you describe the one which you're talking about - would that be a problem too?

Of course you could go round the houses describing what they normally wear etc but of course it would be quicker to say the male/female. Same as describing someone by their skin tone. You're not saying anything negative about them or stereotyping in any way.

@WorraLiberty

Interesting thread OP

The only thing that's confusing me is this. Are you speaking for other black people while telling other black people they don't speak for other people?

"They don't speak for anyone else but themselves", is the part I'm confused by.

Ok, to answer this question I will use an example.

I can assume as this website is called Mumsnet, most of us find our way here while searching for mum related things. Therefore, I think it’s fair to assume most of us here are women.

Personally, I know several women that don’t mind being referred to as b-tch, for example, I’ve heard some female rappers calling themselves that and some women on social media call themselves and their friends that word.

Imagine if a man would then take those women on social media or female rappers as an example of an acceptable term to refer to women as a whole, even random women they don’t know. Imagine if a man kept referring to you as a b-tch, then justifying it by saying that he knows female rappers and women on social media who call themselves that term, so it must be acceptable to call you that as well because you’re a woman too just like them. I’m sure you’d respond by saying those women are only speaking for themselves, not for every woman and not all women appreciate being called b-tch at random. Right?

Some people will come in to say black is a neutral term and not an insult in any way at all. Whereas b-tch is used as an insult. Well, my answer to that is in rap and hip hop, b-tch is often used to refer to women and isn’t necessarily used as an insult there either.

@Coldilox

As a police officer I have to take descriptions or describe people all the time. I would be pretty snookered if I wasn’t allowed to refer to race

Maybe you should never use any of the protected characteristics! 'A person has gone missing. Can't say their sex, ethnicity or age, but do look out for them.'

Race is a social construct and is not genetic.

"Calling people black is learned behaviour that people pick up from the environment they’re either raised in or live in as an adult."

So, therefore, calling the only white man in a group "the white man" is racist.

Calling the only wheelchair user "the wheelchair user" is ablist....the only old person, ageist. ...the only woman, sexist. ...the only glasses wearer, sightist....

Well, my answer to that is in rap and hip hop, b-tch is often used to refer to women and isn’t necessarily used as an insult there either.

But the thread isn't about rap or hip hop - so bitch is an insult. Whereas as 'black' or 'Asian' never is.

Hmm... your opinion is valid but isn't for everyone.

I think someone can refer to skin colour or race (not the same thing) as descriptors.

Eg:
Which one's Jane?
She's the brown/brown-skinned/beige/woman over there [Referred to skin colour]
She's the one with light brown-hair/black hair.
She's the white/black woman over there. [Race]
She's the one in the red dress.

I don't think any of this is wrong but people have their preference.