Assisted dying

[ivykaty44]

I have nursed terminally ill relative, it was a case where Im sure that they would have chosen to use he assisted measures and would have more comfortable for them. It would have certainly distressed me, but I would have been keen to follow their wishes

They were diagnosed with a terminal illness that had a 4 months average life sentence and they died 11 weeks after the fatal diagnosis and refused palliative care to give them a few more weeks

I do believe in some cases to be able to have assisted dying, with possibly intervention of a court to ensure the person wishing to dye isn't being pressured by anyone - would indeed be kinder.

Death even a good loving death can be traumatic and cruel by the nature of dying, whereas a controlled process would be kinder in the actual process of dying.

Someone rasping for 3 or 4 days for breath is not a pleasant for anyone (I had a friend that this happened to but actually he went on for 5 days)

With strict control to ensure their isn't pressure or guilt to die surely this is not unreasonable to ask? I do mean literally with a few weeks to dye and allowing the person to choose when they are ready - if ever

When I die, I don't want it to be withdrawn treatment - left to slowly, over days, shut down. I intend to go to Dignitas, where I can under my own control take a pill that lets me fall asleep painlessly. A truly peaceful death that the 'Liverpool Pathway' most definitely isn't. Thing is, Dignitas isn't an option for many people. It's expensive, and you have to be physically well enough to travel. People have had to travel whilst they still can - meaning some die before they were ready.

I don't believe that a country that places so little value on older people can safely introduce an assisted dying scheme

Even as someone who supports the principle, that's my own worry - the key word being safely

About the Liverpool Pathway, though - someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that still existed, only it's called "comfort care" now? The protocols might be different but it's certainly what happened to my FIL when they stopped trying to drag him back, and involved the withdrawal of observations, food and drink

Fortunately his last days were peaceful despite the previous medical negligence, and while no food and drink upsets our human instincts to care, we were told their withdrawal shuts down the body's capacity to feel pain and distress - though how true this is I don't know

No food and minimal liquid when our organs start shutting down is a kindness. But under the old pathway, elderly people were being denied food and drink because the decision had been made by people without the skills to do so. It was palliative care on the very cheap.

I am a firm supporter of voluntary euthanasia and have a DNAR.
When me and DH made our power of attorney, mine had to go to the court of something, possibly appeal because it was considered by whoever registers them that I had been coerced!

Trouble is so many people have dementia by the time they die they couldn't benefit from AD. Even tho they'd certainly be in their right mind about wanting it.

But when would you kill yourself with dementia? My relative has dementia. Can cook, go to the local shop, socialise with family. TBH you wouldn't know as long as he stays in his routine. It only becomes obvious if he is outside his routine e.g. when admitted to the hospital.

Well definitely many people currently have to opt for assisted suicide too early. They have to travel to Dignitas whilst still physically able to make the journey.

Probably even worse than that, many others have to resort to DIY methods. Often less successful but more painful and distressing (for both patient and loved ones).

Btw there is a difference between euthanasia (clinician administers it) and physician assisted suicide (patient does it themselves but the doctor provides a safe effective - and pretty much painless - medication).

Whilst I personally strongly support both being an option, it's worth noting that Dignitas offers only assisted suicide, not euthanasia. And that is what is currently being debated as an option here too.

So, when people ask what if somebody changes their minds. Well then that's what they do. Change their minds.

@Supersimkin2

Trouble is so many people have dementia by the time they die they couldn't benefit from AD. Even tho they'd certainly be in their right mind about wanting it.

That's when a Living Will comes in.

It should be something every adult with capacity over the age of 18 does. Obviously as a flexible document that can be amended whenever someone wishes.

No food and minimal liquid when our organs start shutting down is a kindness

Arguably, rather than leaving someone to slowly starve/shutdown, it is more of a kindness to give a painless overdose. More dignity, that's for sure.

I know what I would prefer for myself and for my loved ones.

Arguably, rather than leaving someone to slowly starve/shutdown, it is more of a kindness to give a painless overdose. More dignity, that's for sure

I agree. Why can’t the patient be given a morphine overdose or whatever the medicine is that’s given at Dignitas.

Andante apparently Dignitas use Pentobarbital, a barbiturate
Morphine's an opiate, and post-Shipman I expect there are far fewer prepared to help the dying in this way, though no doubt some still do it out of sheer human empathy

It's said that the line between palliative therapy and that which will actually kill the patient can be very thin, especially when someone's actively dying, so on that basis we'll probably never know how many deaths could reasonably be classed as "assisted"

@Hatsuma I know exactly what you're saying. Dementia runs in my family too and I would like to be able to specify NOW, whist mentally competent, that if I reach a certain level of care (that to me takes away my dignity) then I want to die. I don't want to endure years of something that I personally find demeaning. That is my choice and my level of dignity. Others don't have to agree with me and make the same choices. That's ok. As is my determination of what is right for me.

There is no getting better from dementia or a number of other diseases. Losing the ability to communicate basic needs eg pain, hunger, thirst is awful and IMO can lead to neglect (even if unintended).

@k1233 it’s a horrible prospect isn’t it. Watching my gran go through it, I’d say the worst bit for her was the couple of years where she swung between being ‘normal’ to not having any idea what was going on, and back again. On the lucid days she had an ok quality of life but at the same time she also knew in those times that she was losing her mind and that was terrifying for her. And when she was having bad days she’d put herself in all sorts of danger, go off wandering along main roads and not know where she was or how to get home, that kind of thing. By the time she got into a home she was pretty much completely gone and only recognised her favourite child, no one else. She then proceeded to live for another 6 years in a home in that state, with the end being especially grim. It would be hard to know when the right time to step in would be, if someone else had to make that decision for me. Arguably it was all pretty crap, but I still maintain those years before she went into the home were the most distressing for her. But how could any decide that would be the right time for her to die when she was still having good days? I don’t know how it could work in practice but I wish there was a way.

@vdbfamily

Porcupine, if you compare the number of abortions in the year it was legalised to how many take place now you may see evidence of a slippery slope.

The slippery slope of abortion, happened secretly and out of sight before 1967, when it was still illegal. Totally unregulated, often carried out in filthy conditions by untrained people with no anaesthesia, horribly dangerous and risky.

Nobody knows how common it was then compared to now.

@AuntieMarys

It doesn't go far enough for me. I want to be able to decide when I wish to die, and not linger in pain, undignified and useless.

I am 100% in favour, and it needs to go a lot further than what is currently being proposed.

My Mum died of cancer, in Canada, where assisted dying is legal. But when she was in her final days, in agony, and asked for help to die, it was denied. The required paperwork takes months to process and needs assessment and approval from three separate doctors.

So she couldn't die at home, in the place that she loved, with my Dad by her side, as she wanted to… she was taken to hospital and had to go completely on her own because of Covid rules. The only consolation is that at the hospital they were able to put her in an induced coma and that ended her suffering. My kind, gentle Mum, who spent her whole life caring for others, deserved a better ending than that.