Assisted dying

[ivykaty44]

I have nursed terminally ill relative, it was a case where Im sure that they would have chosen to use he assisted measures and would have more comfortable for them. It would have certainly distressed me, but I would have been keen to follow their wishes

They were diagnosed with a terminal illness that had a 4 months average life sentence and they died 11 weeks after the fatal diagnosis and refused palliative care to give them a few more weeks

I do believe in some cases to be able to have assisted dying, with possibly intervention of a court to ensure the person wishing to dye isn't being pressured by anyone - would indeed be kinder.

Death even a good loving death can be traumatic and cruel by the nature of dying, whereas a controlled process would be kinder in the actual process of dying.

Someone rasping for 3 or 4 days for breath is not a pleasant for anyone (I had a friend that this happened to but actually he went on for 5 days)

With strict control to ensure their isn't pressure or guilt to die surely this is not unreasonable to ask? I do mean literally with a few weeks to dye and allowing the person to choose when they are ready - if ever

Name change fail, but who cares!

@LivingLaVidaBabyShower

Yabu

I understand and empathise and on paper it all sounds reasonable...
But i am a highly skeptical on this part With strict control to ensure their isn't pressure or guilt to die

I too worry about this. People at the end of their lives have very little agency and already feel guilty about what people have to do for them . Offering them the option of assisted dying is a very emotionally loaded offer.

It would have scared my dad who definitely did not want any help to die. He kept on wanting to live until he actually died regardless of the terrible indignities that a brain tumor foisted on him.

@AnitaMani

I'm sorry for your loss, and I agree with everything you've said.

I lost my Dad in April 2020, he went into a hospice in the March and I would say died peacefully (after a very rough few weeks)

I'd like to know more about the 'pathway' people talk about, what they gave my Dad for 'his breathing' which made him take his last breath a couple of hours later. Do we have assisted dying (eventually) in palliative care? It's all a bit of a blur and I've never really considered asking or researching. It's not something that bothers me, I just curious.

We don't have assisted dying but some of the drugs given hasten death. If they are given for the purposes of pallitive care then that is legal but were they given to hasten death it would be illegal.

I absolutely agree. 100% We offer that kindness to our pets but we have to suffer to the very end.

My grandma always said to us that if she ever started showing signs of dementia she would end her own life rather than slip away in the way she has watched so many others doing. Thankfully for her in the end she died quickly and painlessly anyway because suffering, or being unable to do even basic things for herself was her idea of living hell.

@BrainBleachNeeded

It’s a slippery slope and it makes me uncomfortable.

Is it a slippery slope though? Weve had abortion for years but we havent progressed on to killing babies.

@AnitaMani
“When someone who is gravely ill says to you 'I want to die' I'm pretty sure they mean it. Noone says that more than once in their lives do they?”

I wasn’t ill, but I remember being in so much agony my first childbirth (it was back labour and lasted 30hrs), that I did at one point say I wanted to die. I didn’t mean it. I was just terrified of pushing and tearing, and the reality of getting a whole baby through my vagina. So I would say that people do indeed say “I want to die” when in extremis and don’t necessarily mean it or actually want to die.

The NHS is on its knees - do people really think this won’t be used as a way to ration care? I think it would be great to have the option to choose to go when the time is right but I just know this will be abused.

@Careerchangetime

Why are you so angry at me *@MatildaIThink*?

First of all, i haven’t said anywhere that it should be banned just because it makes me comfortable. I dont really give a shit what other people do with their life when they’re alive or in death. The bill has only passed the first hurdle here in the U.K., so I don’t even know what the hell you’re talking about.

Second, I’ve seen both my parents die. You’re not the only one who’s suffered seeing someone they love die. My parents would never have asked for assisted death, so your experience of death isn’t the same for everyone.

It’s a slippery slope. Can see it being offered to lonely old people to help curb the housing and care crisis. Guilty old people who feel they’re a burden on the NHS or their families may feel like they need to do this…And that’s just the start.

I don't think Matildalthink's post, in response to you, comes across as remotely angry

It is okay to question / challenge another poster in a discussion

I looked after someone once who was to all intents and purposes dead but still breathing, albeit only just .

Doctor said only way to ‘let them die’ was to give them fluids for comfort only or something like that . It went on for weeks .

By the end it was absolutely horrendous, it was the only time at work I fainted, and I wish to God we could have done something to hasten the process; and I imagine their family felt exactly the same way - it was one of the most horrendous, horribly disturbing things I’ve ever seen . I can’t describe it without sounding very disrespectful . I think of their children very often and imagine they have PTSD .

Saw similar time after time with brain injuries where the person was resuscitated, no hope of real recovery, effectively dead but responding on a reflex level, and left to die in a side room albeit always with nursing care and kindness snd pain relief and sedation - but you used to wish you could give them a massive dose of morphine snd put them out of their misery and suffering, for family’s sake sometimes more than anything . You wouldn’t treat a dog like that .

However I would say I looked after a handful who did appear to be going down that road at first but eventually recovered - and of them I know a few are now leading what would be appear to be a very happy and comfortable life - so it’s not an easy judgement to make at all .

@Dontgetyerknicksinatwist do you really think care isnt rationed now?

@Herja I’ve tears in my eyes. I wish your grandad the most peaceful passing possible and send my love to you both.

My mum spent the last 18months of her life in horrendous pain. She was on the highest dose of morphine patch and was prescribed oramorph not long before she died. I remember her saying to me "the only reason I'm not asking you to leave me alone with the bottle open is because I don't want you getting into trouble, but if I could do it myself I would". If she had asked I would absolutely have done it for her. Hearing her sobbing daily with the pain and knowing that this was all she could look forward to day after day for however long she had left was the most heart breaking thing. In the end Covid did what we were unable to do and the tears we shed when she died were a mixture of sorrow that she had gone and relief that she was now pain-free.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I have opposite experience to yours OP. My DF went into hospital ill and it came about that he needed dialysis for his kidneys but because of his age (76), the doctors decided not to do it, to simply let him die a horrible death from kidney failure and put a DNR on him without his consent and without telling us, his family, until after he had passed.

So I do think assisted dying would be abused by medical professionals in the U.K., as it is elsewhere in the world where it is available. You have mentally ill twenty something year olds manipulated into thinking assisted dying is only way to cure their psychological pain, I read an article about a 24yr old Swiss woman with EUPD who was coerced into it. Which is a real travesty because EUPD has a suicide rate of 1 in 10 as it is, and we should be helping mentally ill people to live better lives, not letting them kill them selves to avoid caring for them. It cuts close for me as I have schizophrenia and I wonder if I went into a psychotic break and the doctors decided, nah too much trouble, let’s just put this faulty human to sleep. Then it will be people with disabilities, or bad injuries, doctors saying that the ‘quality of life’ would be too poor...so put a DNR on them and then fast track them to be put to sleep.

Then you have elderly being withheld lifesaving treatments just because they are old and given DNRs without their knowledge, consent or informing the family, which DID actually happen during the Covid pandemic in the U.K. With assisted dying, this would happen more often for any reason as happened with my DF.

This

Thank you NoSquirrels, that's very kind.

[quote Porcupineintherough]@Dontgetyerknicksinatwist do you really think care isnt rationed now?[/quote]
No I agree that it is already being rationed - but this will be seen as a another way to ease the burden on the NHS. I sincerely wish that wasn’t the case.

@AuntieMarys

It doesn't go far enough for me. I want to be able to decide when I wish to die, and not linger in pain, undignified and useless.

I'm with you. I am fully prepared to end it myself if I get a horrific diagnosis and the option to go abroad/do it 'above board' in the UK isn't there.

In the 1980's my father had an assisted death. He had a very caring GP who spent a lot of time with him. He was being nursed at home and in the final days with terminal cancer when he developed a lot of pain. We called the GP and she came and gave him a dose of morphine, enough to take the pain away but not to send him to sleep.
She discussed things with him and it was agreed that she would come back in 2 hrs and give him enough morphine so that he wouldn't wake up again. This is exactly what happened, he was pain free and we could all say our goodbyes.
It was what he wanted and saved him another few days of agony.

I’ve been there as my 90+ year old grandmother lay dying, and my 70-year-old mother. One in a care home, one in a hospice.

My grandmother lay dying for weeks. As I understand it, the doctors obviously did what they thought was best but in fact they managed to prolong her end of life at the moment there was no benefit to anyone. It was pretty horrific - my dad was traumatised by watching his mother die. I only did relief shifts when it was too much for him, or my mum or other gran (they were close) to sit, and eventually his elder brother arrived too and shared the vigil. But it was weeks. There was no benefit to it, only trauma, really.

My mother was in hospice for a brief spell and died there after deteriorating rapidly. They kept us informed at every stage - they recommended when we should be moving to increase dosages of different drugs and what that would mean - that she’d no longer be responsive, that her breathing would slow. It was respectful and we felt confident in them.

Due to my mum watching her beloved husband struggle with the effects of watching his mother die, she was desperate not to have him sit vigil with her when her time came. She wanted to protect him from that. But in the end he was there holding her when she died, and I think the ‘management’ of her death, for want of a better phrase, allowed that for him and it was important and healing.

My dad remains terrified of becoming a burden or incapacitated and living when he should be dead. He says he’d kill himself. I don’t think he would, and that’s where this conflict is - when is it OK to choose, can it really be OK, and should anyone else choose for you?

My grandmother wouldn’t have chosen to end her own life, she was religious, so it wouldn’t have helped her. Would her sons have chosen the burden to help her if they knew she might not have agreed?

I don’t know the answers. Except funding for hospice care. A good death should be as important as prolonging life in so many cases.

Porcupine, if you compare the number of abortions in the year it was legalised to how many take place now you may see evidence of a slippery slope.

@vdbfamily

Porcupine, if you compare the number of abortions in the year it was legalised to how many take place now you may see evidence of a slippery slope.

What?!

@vdbfamily

Porcupine, if you compare the number of abortions in the year it was legalised to how many take place now you may see evidence of a slippery slope.

All that means is that fewer unwanted pregnancies will becoming to term, where as when introduced many women were more scared of the social stigma of having an abortion.

It has not been a "slippery slope" because we have not stated killing babies, or even extended the window for abortions.

I think it’s inevitable.
Does anyone remember the teenager with persistent depression who chose to die? In Holland I think.

@thewhatsit

I find it odd and barbaric that we don’t have the right to end our own lives in a dignified manner. I suppose it comes from old religious ideas that all life belongs to god and he chooses when you are born and when you die etc… ?

That wouldn't make a lot of sense, if it was from that religious belief then people wouldn't allow medical intervention to keep them alive which in many cases is all that's keeping them going by the end.