Assisted dying

[ivykaty44]

I have nursed terminally ill relative, it was a case where Im sure that they would have chosen to use he assisted measures and would have more comfortable for them. It would have certainly distressed me, but I would have been keen to follow their wishes

They were diagnosed with a terminal illness that had a 4 months average life sentence and they died 11 weeks after the fatal diagnosis and refused palliative care to give them a few more weeks

I do believe in some cases to be able to have assisted dying, with possibly intervention of a court to ensure the person wishing to dye isn't being pressured by anyone - would indeed be kinder.

Death even a good loving death can be traumatic and cruel by the nature of dying, whereas a controlled process would be kinder in the actual process of dying.

Someone rasping for 3 or 4 days for breath is not a pleasant for anyone (I had a friend that this happened to but actually he went on for 5 days)

With strict control to ensure their isn't pressure or guilt to die surely this is not unreasonable to ask? I do mean literally with a few weeks to dye and allowing the person to choose when they are ready - if ever

[quote ivykaty44]@Alaimo someone I knew in nederlands was terminally ill and offered assisted dying as an option to pursue if they wanted

My thoughts are that it should be instigated by the patient to go down that route not the medics

They did actually move to U.K. for palliative care and to die[/quote]
I agree it should come from the patient and not be offered.

My father and mother died last year a month apart. My mother died first and it will always haunt me how awful my father's last 4 weeks must have been - full lockdown so no visits from family, only allowed out for my mother's funeral etc. He knew he was nearing the end because the GP had called him in to do an end of life plan (which poisoned his last few months, but that's a different issue).

Finally I was allowed to see him as he was at end of life. They told him they couldn't do any more for him (why? he didn't ask). He was struggling to breathe and told me he just wanted it to be over. The doctor said Dad had asked if he could do anything to speed it up but of course he couldn't. It was just awful and if I could have helped him end it I would have in a heartbeat.

I think the proposal going through including the consent of 2 doctors and a judge is OK - it's certainly what I would want.

I don't think there is anything wrong with raising the issue when you are talking to a patient whose condition is incurable, terminal and/or degenerative. My father had the option raised when he was first diagnosed with Parkinsons dementia because at that point he had full capacity to consent and the clinicians wanted to record his wishes. He decided at that point that he did not want an assisted suicide at any point.

Eighteen months later the dementia had a solid hold and he changed his mind - but by that time his capacity was fluctuating severely and he was not considered capable of making that decision. At his lucid times he knew exactly what had happened and what his earlier choice had tied him to, and it was heartbreaking.

This was in the Netherlands, by the way, so please no more nonsense about how they kill off the oldies willy-nilly without consent over there.

I don't think there is anything wrong with raising the issue when you are talking to a patient whose condition is incurable, terminal and/or degenerative.

this made the person feel fear of going to the hospital as each time they were asked, thus them coming across to UK

This was in the Netherlands, by the way, so please no more nonsense about how they kill off the oldies willy-nilly without consent over there.

I hadn't seen that post

@ivykaty44

I don't think there is anything wrong with raising the issue when you are talking to a patient whose condition is incurable, terminal and/or degenerative.

this made the person feel fear of going to the hospital as each time they were asked, thus them coming across to UK

You see, what happened to your person would be considered bad practice. You would only ask again if something materially changed in their situation or their prognosis. My dad was asked only once and his decision recorded. Asking at every visit is absolutely not acceptable.

My grandmother had an assisted suicide in the Netherlands in 2006 after a sudden and serious degeneration in her health. She was 100% capable of making the decision so she and her clinical team set out the plan for the pathway that would take her to the moment she decided it was all enough. She died with her family present, in a homelike environment that did not look like a houspital room. She chose the moment, she got her nails and her hair done because she wanted to meet St Peter at her best and went out 100% as herself.

Bad practice anywhere should be called out, but it should not be used as an excuse for maintaining the UK status quo.

@Flossieskeeper

I’m sorry you and your relative went through that experience. Out of interest- if you were the hop being asked to assist dying could you? Could you prescribe the medication knowing it will end life or administer ( possibly by injection) knowing it will end life?

And I don’t mean double jeopardy whereby you are treating pain but know the morphine will have the effect of reducing the effort of breathing.

I’m asking because to implement assisted dying will entail some degree of this. It’s not a judgement on whether assisted dying should be offered.

Agree with this post.

I am a vet and wholeheartedly feel that animal euthanasia, well done and well timed, is one of the most kind and rewarding things we do.

But, it takes an emotional toll in the long run and studies suggest that frequent exposure to euthanasia may be part of the reason that vets have a high suicide rate - that we become programmed to normalise death as a solution to an intractable problem.

I am not sure I could be the one administering a drug to a person in the same circumstances, even though I think the argument for assisted dying is compelling from the patient’s POV.

Can I ask - what is a hop?

[quote Porcupineintherough]@BrainBleachNeeded I dont see that your arguement follows at all. Most people dont need assistance to commit suicide, so if there were a whole load of families wanting to pressure their elderly relatives into commuting suicide we should be seeing that now. Are we?[/quote]
Ofcourse nobody is asking their elderly relatives to commit suicide. There is no option is there? But plenty of people admitting things such as the doctor or themselves ramping up morphine or wanting the option for themselves or relatives.

What is worrying is how many people are willing to say even on here that they don’t mind assisted suicide if it helps relieve pressure off the NHS. Or they don’t want to burden their families, or they’ve would have chosen it in hindsight for elderly relatives if it were available.
These type of comments are frightening to say the least, because there are so many people admitting they would make use of the option. When there’s an option, and you’re being asked, You’ve been conditioned by society that it’s normal to just commit suicide before you become a burden on anyone or you don’t want to go through illness.

Then I don’t like the fact that people who don’t agree with assisted suicide will be looked down upon for being “inhumane”. That’s a word being thrown around isn’t it?

Finally, i wonder how much it would cost? Will this be something you pay for privately? Will it create a bigger wedge between rich and poor? Or will the poor be the ones who end up being offered assisted suicide?

Too many things to think about with this. It’s just not as straightforward as it sounds.

@Getawaywithit

I have always said that at 50 when most of us have had experience of illness and death in parents, friends, colleagues and have the mental capacity enough to know what we would like to happen to us, we should be able to make a living will and set out requirements within whatever parameters are set on law. Having watched my mum slowly die of dementia, for me I would like to be supported to die at the point I am struggling to recognise my own children and my care is nothing but a burden to them. Equally, people could set out that they want every possible intervention regardless of the diagnosis or something in between. The way we treat people on their twilight years is barbaric with sub-standard care and a prolong life at all cost approach. We really do need to look at how people can be supported to make their own decisions.

We can, to a point.

An elderly friend of mine had a longterm illness she knew would eventually kill her. She appointed a Power of Attorney, registered her Advance Directive (End of Life Treatment wishes) with her GP and treating hospital, and discussed with GP, family etc the point at which she would activate a DNR (refusing life-saving medical intervention).
Having done all that she carried on living as well as she could, secure in the knowledge that when she was ready, activating her DNR would see her off pretty quick (because of the nature of her illness). When her regular treatments were becoming more frequent. less effective and more troublesome she decided her quality of life had reached a point where she'd had enough. She announced "On my next acute episode, no more treatment, I'm going to activate the DNR". Which is exactly what happened, and she died about 6 hours later , perfectly calm and dignified and peaceful.

I have always been in favour of assisted dying but it MUST be the patient's choice. It's what I would want for myself but then I see statements like this:

As a society we cannot afford life at all costs.

and I'm less convinced we are capable of making sure it is ONLY about the comfort and dignity of the person dying.

I can imagine passing assisted dying legislation leading to a shift in attitudes at a societal level which leaves those who actually don't want to die feeling as if it's expected because they are a burden on the state; I cannot support that.

I'd support AD... as said, with strong safeguarding so no one can pressurise someone because, for example, they want assets from them.

I suspect calls for AD will build as more and more families see relatives living long lives where their final years are totally wretched. I honestly think we might see a spike in suicides among older people diagnosed with certain conditions who will decide 'I am not going through that and I'm not putting my family through it'

I have an older relative who is losing their eyesight and in the early (but rapidly accelerating) stages of dementia, which one of their parents lived with for quite a while. I find it dreadful to think that their life is only going to get worse and worse from now and, awful as it is to think it, I kind of hope that an illness will come along and finish them off quickly in the next year or so rather than them having to live in this deteriorating state for years.

This will be seen as a another way to ease the burden on the NHS

Even though I support the principle of euthanasia, that's what would worry me.
Considering what else we're expected to do to protect the sacred cow, how long would it take for the narrative to start about "selfish people using up resouces when they've no quality of life or hope of recovery"? And that's before we get to the pressure from relatives who watch their inheritance being eaten up by care home fees

I support the right to die. If I were suffering then I wouldn't want to go through it, i.e. the suffering for no need. It gives people, who choose to, back control.

Fully in support of the right to die.

We treat animals more humanely than humans at the end of life.

Imo in a lot of cases, modern medicine hasn't prolonged life, it's prolonged death. And a long, drawn out, painful death is harrowing and inhumane.

It's very arrogant for healthy young or middle aged people to presume we know best about what would be In the best interests of the terminally Ill.
I've often wondered why they can't effectively anaesthetise people in the last stages of their lives? Would that not remove the struggling to breathe and panicking? Which must be dreadful for the patient, their families and care staff. I don't know enough about the subject, and that may be too simplistic or still ethically questionable

I agree with the right to die.
I am also wary of the push to get rid of people. (The hatred for MILs, Boomers, anyone over 60 as if their opinions are invalid, they have no right to a big house, a seat on a bus, to voice a comment, to use resources, to spend their own money ). So yes I'm concerned.
But if it truly is your own choice you should be given the help you need

I am someone who has changed their mind from a 'sanctity of life/too easy to manipulate' position to I think it is in 'the best interest to give individuals with capacity the choice with safeguards in place'.

What changed my mind was realising how awful end of life care is - removal of fluids and dehydrating and starving a person to death is beyond comprehension. Yet it happens day in day out in our country.

To have the option of a managed and peaceful death is within our medical capabilities and is something I would like to have the choice of.

What changed my mind was realising how awful end of life care is - removal of fluids and dehydrating and starving a person to death is beyond comprehension. Yet it happens day in day out in our country.

Agree with this. We are already basically assisting people to die, but in a way that is protracted and prolongs the agony. The new proposals would result in far less cruelty and suffering.

Removal of fluids is horrific - my bed bound and terminally ill relative took basically the same amount of time to die from dehydration as I would have done if they had caught and strapped me down to the next door bed when visiting her!
I am not arguing that sometimes dying might become the best thing for a person - but if that is decided by the medical personnel and fluids are withdrawn to allow it to happen then it seems as if an overdose of anaesthetic at that point would get there a lot more humanely - even Jesus was offered vinegar whilst being crucified ffs! Dehydration seems an awful lot of suffering to inflict in order to maintain a very very thin veneer of weasel words that signing a no fluids order isn't taking an action that will kill, only one which will inevitably lead to death...

@BrainBleachNeeded
Of course no one is asking their elderly relatives to commit suicide. There's no option is there?

You can get paracetamol at every pharmacy. There are drops and ropes and knives and exhaust fumes everywhere. It's not lack of options that's stopping families pushing their elderly relatives to end it all, it's the fact that it's not so easy to force someone to commit suicide against their will even if you are so minded (and most of us aren't). So why would assisted suicide, with all its checks and balances, suddenly precipitate coerced suicide?

My nan was in her 90s and had a catastrophic stroke. Her brain was basically mush. They withdrew food and water from her after 2 days. We then sat with her for 4 days as that’s how long it took her to die even with no water. How is that humane?

@Flossieskeeper

I’m sorry you and your relative went through that experience. Out of interest- if you were the hop being asked to assist dying could you? Could you prescribe the medication knowing it will end life or administer ( possibly by injection) knowing it will end life?

And I don’t mean double jeopardy whereby you are treating pain but know the morphine will have the effect of reducing the effort of breathing.

I’m asking because to implement assisted dying will entail some degree of this. It’s not a judgement on whether assisted dying should be offered.

And yes! To answer that question, any one of my family could have injected my Nan with drugs to cause her death. We all desperately wanted her suffering to end.

I think people should be allowed to make elections at any point in their life to specify in which circumstances they wish to die with assisted dying. I know my personal desires as to the minimum quality of life I am prepared to accept (I believe in quality of life over quantity) and I very strongly believe that I should be allowed stipulate this whilst I am of sound mind and can articulate the reasons I feel this way.

I do not believe imminent death should be a pre requisite. People should be allowed to make elections that suit them and not be dictated to that any life is better than dying. I don't force my views on others and resent others forcing theirs on to me.

I plan to write my wishes onto my will in the hope that they will be followed.

It's very arrogant for healthy young or middle aged people to presume we know best about what would be In the best interests of the terminally Ill

A very valid point, though it cuts both ways. So just as it shouldn't be for the first group to insist the second go on suffering against their will, neither should they be able to decide death's "in their best interests" for less than altruistic motives

As a PP just said, you only have to read the derision for the aged on here - the last acceptable "ism", apparently - to appeciate the problems which could arise

TBH a good GP will prescribe JICS …just in case meds …as long as the meds are justified ie pain ,agitation then there is no reason why anyone should die in pain or distressed.