To wonder who will look after us in old age?

[malificent7]

I am curently a care assitant temp until my permanent job in healthcare is sorted. It is very rewarding but hard, dirty work for little money.
They are understaffed and many are leaving due to bad pay. As we are an aging population aibu to think this is going to get worse? How can we get carers to stay,?

Disclaimer...there is no way i want dd to look after me...not fair on her...i'd rather go to a home.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER I agree with you, less 'striving to keep alive' is definitely the way forward. It's much easier once everybody stops striving, and often more peaceful and nicer for the person concerned. I sometimes wonder who is doing the striving; once the person is moved to palliative care, they immediately stop striving, whereas in other departments they keep going when it's really unwise; there's a lack of a join there.

When someone has dementia and is doubly incontinent, the mere idea of ‘dignity’ is a sick joke

Is that true too for the child who has severe learning difficulties, doubly incontinent, and confined to a wheelchair?

What I am finding difficult is where to draw the line.
Do you strive to save a 5yo with brain tumour knowing they will suffer from some ‘side effects’ from the radiotherapy/chemo/surgery when you dint know the extend of how much they will be affected by said treatment?

What about people who chose brain surgery knowing that the chance for it to work is close to 0.5%? Knowing that those same people are reduced to a vegetative state in the 50% they survive (the rest being dead)?
Many people chose to have that little bit of hope despite the risk and the lack of dignity if it doesn’t work.

It’s a very complex picture.

@malificent7

I am curently a care assitant temp until my permanent job in healthcare is sorted. It is very rewarding but hard, dirty work for little money. They are understaffed and many are leaving due to bad pay. As we are an aging population aibu to think this is going to get worse? How can we get carers to stay,?

Disclaimer...there is no way i want dd to look after me...not fair on her...i'd rather go to a home.

The OP posted the above, and although I guess discussing the options to social care are valid, the question was how can we get carers to stay, which as the current crisis is showing, is a question that needs answering sooner rather than later. The fact this has turned into a debate about assisted dying and families caring for their own is I suppose a symptom of the problem - it's still not being discussed, properly, how we can as a society can deliver decent care to those that need it while not forgetting the needs of the people that deliver that care, or even their right to have a wage, training and regard that reflects the contribution they make to society by doing this job - caring for other people's family members in their years of need when their own families can't because of the scope of those needs. That's the issue that's been coming for years, that people have been trying to warn against, but no one really wants to listen, it's something that really usually touches people's lives for a few years, for me it touches my life every day, it has consumed my life since covid. I honestly don't have much more to give than I already have, the industry has had it all. It's not that my goodwill has run out and I'm not willing any more, I don't have any reserves left, they have all been used - I want to but it's costing me too much.

Sorry, @TravelLost, but I don’t think you can compare a severely disabled child to an elderly person with dementia and the associated incontinence, who is only ever going to get worse.

Plus, in the case of such a person, it may well be all too painfully clear to relatives, that the person would have absolutely hated to end up like this, and that their former self would have begged everyone concerned to let them go - or at least, not to strive to keep them alive.

I think it’s quite hard to say what you would or wouldn’t do for family members until you’re in that position.

My mother looked after my grandmother when she initially developed her Alzheimer’s which was fine at first, but she deteriorated very quickly and my mum couldn’t cope. She would wake up at 3am and quietly leave the house trying to find where she thought she lived and walked the streets aimlessly. So my mum got extra locks on the front door to stop her. But then she tried to break a window when she couldn’t get out of the door. Once my mum had just boiled the kettle and went to answer the front door, and in that time my gran poured herself a cup of boiling water and taken a big gulp which caused severe burns in her mouth and throat. Despite her best efforts my mum wasn’t able to care for her in the way she needed, so a home with specialist carers and processes became the better option.

I don't know the answer, other than lots of money.

I would say that medics i know are clear. When it comes to the crunch, very few people embrace death. Most will fight for every second. There can also be a lot of family pressure on old infirm people to 'not be a burden'. Plus the whole 'dump a granny' at Christmas.

There a huge gulf between dignitas and euthanasia. That gulf seems to be much narrower in some of the posts on here. It's one thing to speak like that as a healthy middle aged adult. Very different as you get older.

@Sparklesocks, exactly.

My FiL would often be banging and shouting at 2 or 3 am, demanding to go out for e.g. fish and chips. Dh was still working in a very demanding, long hours job and we had dds coming up to GCSEs and A levels. It just wasn’t sustainable. And that was without what I had in the daytime while trying to work from home - e.g. seriously scary rages over the tiniest things, and asking the same question over and over and over - I once counted 35 times in one hour.

I also remember a GM who’d stay with my folks now and then to give my aunt a break. More than once she was out in her nightie in the middle of the night, banging on a neighbour’s door and insisting on being driven to Scotland - where she’d lived decades previously.

So often people have absolutely no idea of what dementia can mean. I wouldn’t wish it on anybody, but I do often think that those people who make such pious comments about how dreadful it is to put a parent in a home, could do with having their eyes opened by experience.

Care costs. How do you out the wages up without making care unaffordable?

We used to admire the way our beloved pets could be put to sleep when it was time: when they had low quality of life or required difficult treatment. Whilst treatments have really changed for our pets, I've seen people try to keep very elderly pets alive.
What 19 year old blind cat needs a cardiologist and overnight stays to be monitored? Put it to sleep please. Whether it's insurance digging it's oar in to money pits is another issue that complicates the pet issue but raises the idea perhaps some sort of insurance would be needed to cover it.
Not everyone needs care as they age.

Your inheritance being protected whilst someone else's pays for your parents care is a crap idea too.

My mum looked after her mum with very little help from her siblings. I won’t expect my daughter to do the same.

I only have one dc and never expect them to care for me in my old age. We're lucky that we will hopefully (still) have the means to pay for our own care should we need it. All I would expect/ hope from dc is that I can continue to have a loving relationship with them. However I think we need to consider what they want to do in that situation. I know that when my gran was unwell we wanted to look after them and as a family we all felt very strongly about it- luckily we were on the same page as her. Care was only needed in the final stages when Macmillan nurses (who were fab!) came at the end to give pain relief.

My fil talks openly about never ever going into a care home- he's very determined . He says he'd rather be dead. So as a family we are going to have to respect his wishes and do what we can- until we can't 🤷‍♀️.

My other gran moved into assisted living in her early 80's (20 years ago- I don't think she'd ever meet criteria now) and loved it! Made friends, had a weekly set and blow dry, someone to clean the apartment , social activities, weekly mass. Tbf she didn't have many medicinal needs other than frailty with old age.

So What I'm saying is every person and every family is different and we need to respect all views, where possible, and it isn't always possible unfortunately.

Assisted dying is absolutely my personal preference once I can no longer physically toilet myself ' in the language of care, "keep myself clean", at the first sign of dementia or in case of any illness, whichever is the sooner.

There are no relevant moral or religious "scruples" to stop me. I sincerely hope that when the time comes, there are no laws to prevent me, either.

@Youcancallmeval

If I get to a point I need care, I will be booking a one way ticket to Switzerland.

Me too!

@LivingLaVidaBabyShower The basic jist is now you are old and are now a worthless burden now as women are only good as long as they are useful or "stop being a selfish old bitch grandma. Your life is basically over anyway and you want to piss £ 000s up the wall on care despite no quality of life while poor Timmy and suzi who you CLAIM to love are just starting out and need money for university fees and home deposits."

Actually, I'd argue it's far more misogynist to expect women to sacrifice their middle years to caring for parents who may not even recognise them. And it's anti young people on so many levels - to expect that all this happens at the same time they need their parents, to expect them to take low paid jobs to wipe our arses, or to expect them to pay enormous amounts in tax to subsidise our old ages.

Old age is hard. Care needs to be better funded. But prolonging life far beyond our brain's ability to cope helps nobody.

DoesHePlayTheFiddle agree with you. I belive in assisted dying and it can be an act of.kindness.
However, i also.cant afdord dignitas... but have.no.idea how to.research exit plan .

My parents died when I was quite young...It's hard watching my friends and their children get so much help and support from their parents. However, I remind myself that in 15-20 years they'll be dealing with very elderly parents and either having to care or organize care, whereas I will have none of that! It's a shitty silver lining but I'll take it! As for my mil, I'd rather end my relationship with my dh than take on a caring role.

I think it’s really interesting how many people are bringing up assisted dying as if it’s an easy fix. I have every sympathy with it as an idea, having watched one grandmother suffer at the end for far too long, and the other lose her mind to dementia. I don’t think we’d be able to discuss it honestly enough as a society to be effective at helping those it should. There’s so much squeamishness around death as it is. Or it would open up dangerous precedents. I don’t know how you can decide on what quality of life is honestly acceptable on someone else’s behalf. Where does that leave people with learning difficulties or physical disabilities for example?

As many people have said I honestly wish it was as easy as bringing your parents to live in a granny annexe to be a ‘good’ family. If this was the only option I’d probably be currently looking after two elderly relatives who have no other next of kin, both with very different care needs, and somehow managing to also care for my six year old. It would be impossible without endangering someone. I once had to make a decision about whether to catch my Mum who looked like she was going to fall or my toddler who was bolting into the road. Caught the toddler and Mum hadn’t completely gone by the time I got back so no harm done in that instance, but if you were doing it all the time accidents would happen and I wouldn’t be able to provide even basic levels of good care for anyone.

I think the only thing that might possibly help is a reevaluation of the importance of caring jobs - both care workers for the elderly and Early Years staff are woefully underpaid and undervalued. I did hope the pandemic might provide this push to think about what matters most in our society but everyone just seems angrier than ever instead!

@Ledition

Depends how "bad" I am but I would want my DDs to look after me! I will look after my own mum if she requires it in the future. It's not selfish IMO it's what good families are supposed to do. However, full-time around the clock care with zero respite is different but if I just need a bit of help with showering/cooking well they can bloody well step up

Lovely, although I hope you give them a choice and not just assume.

I have two sons, and no way in hell are they helping me bathe.

I have thought about the problem of not being able to consent to assisted dying when dementia starts, perhaps annual Advance Directives is the answer, having to sign off every year the fact that you have made the decision not to want go on past a certain point of dignity and that you continue to feel this way for a significant number of years, then appointing Attorneys to ensure you’re decision is respected come that time.

I already have several chronic pain problems and illnesses I manage, should I get dementia I will loose my ability to manage them or articulate when they are becoming worse, so I face being essentially trapped in lots of pain for potentially decades. This isn’t life, or even bare existence, it’s torture and I should have the right to opt out earlier.

@TravelLost

When someone has dementia and is doubly incontinent, the mere idea of ‘dignity’ is a sick joke

Is that true too for the child who has severe learning difficulties, doubly incontinent, and confined to a wheelchair?

What I am finding difficult is where to draw the line.
Do you strive to save a 5yo with brain tumour knowing they will suffer from some ‘side effects’ from the radiotherapy/chemo/surgery when you dint know the extend of how much they will be affected by said treatment?

What about people who chose brain surgery knowing that the chance for it to work is close to 0.5%? Knowing that those same people are reduced to a vegetative state in the 50% they survive (the rest being dead)?
Many people chose to have that little bit of hope despite the risk and the lack of dignity if it doesn’t work.

It’s a very complex picture.

The difference is, it’s instinctive for parents to want to keep children alive at all costs. Children should never die before parents and the heartache of such a tragic loss would imprint on the parents forever. It’s not comparable as it’s not the natural order of life.

Most parents would want to keep their children alive for as long as possible, as that would be the norm for any parent. It’s not the same as keeping someone alive when their body simply wants to die of old age….

To add, ‘Learning Difficulties’ are specific, such as Dyslexia. The term you were looking for is ‘Learning Disabilities’, these are referred to as Mild, Severe, etc…. (I’m not being pedantic but people don’t use the correct terms often and when I see it, I correct it)

I live with my son and DiL because multigenerational living was a better financial choice for us all. The house is separated into two separate parts and each have our own front doors. I still work full time.
There is no way I want them to care for me, they have their own lives.
DiL is disabled anyway so it isn't going to happen as I help care for her.
I've always wanted euthanasia, I have no intention of living with dementia or a permanent disabling illness and that is my own personal choice, I am fed up with people saying I can't have it.
I am a member of Dignitas and have enough money put aside to do the deed when the time comes.
I don't want to be kept alive to the bitter end.

As someone who saw a very frail and ill family member struggle and need full time care for over 10 years....I am VERY MUCH AGAINST assisted dieing. She only wanted to die when she was at her lowest and other times she would be happy to see her grandchildren, express how much she wanted to see them marry etc. There were definitely family members who saw her as a huge burden and made that clear. The pressure to kill herself would have been huge if assisted dieing was available (there was an inheritance at stake as well which was obviously getting smaller as more money was spent on care - not huge by any means but we were a poor family so it was a lot to us).

While I really feel for the minority of people who have full mental capacity while having severe physical illnesses that cause them pain and misery, I think that on the whole the system would be hugely open to abuse. I feel very strongly that this should not be made legal.

@OnwardsAndSideways1 for someone to be kept to it and restrained and put to sleep is horrific.

[quote Fernhilde]@OnwardsAndSideways1 for someone to be kept to it and restrained and put to sleep is horrific.[/quote]
I agree - and this is the problem with dementia and assisted dying.
IME, survival instinct kicks in much higher than normal as the brain is undergoing the changes with dementia, in one training session a nurse described it as someone being constantly in fight or flight mode. It's why some people with dementia fight off those trying to administer personal care, they don't understand what you are saying to them, have no concept of any frailty they have and to them, are fighting being done harm. It's why some try and repeatedly leave, or 'wander' trying windows and doors, they are being held against their will and because of the nature of the illness, can't understand why.

I could forsee assisted dying falling to care homes in the instance of the elderly, and where I would support someone through it if it's what they wanted, there's no way I'm going to hold someone down so it can be done, advance directive or not.

"Modern medicine has created a monster. We artificially prolong life well beyond its normal expiry date, and now we are struggling to deal with the consequences.
I remember a debate in the BMJ over 20 years ago, asking whether, by treating hypertension etc, we have simply converted a quick clean death from heart disease at 70, into a lingering ghastly death from cancer and/or dementia at 80. I think we are now seeing the answer."

This is why I have refused statins.
I have talked with H & DC, about my wishes should I end up decrepit & suffering or just an empty vessel.
My parents were both in the medical profession,
My dad got Alzheimers, was put in a home, (by my mother) refused to eat & died 5 weeks later.
My mother had a long degenerating illness for 50 years, & died at 90, at least 5 years after her body was worthless to her & it cost 60k a year approx to keep her in the comfort of her home with live- in carers.
I grew up with this debate.
I feel I should be allowed to be released by my family, according to my wishes.
Now, whether they will be able to go through with it?
I probably won't be there to smile , & say "Its OK, I love you, It's what I want, be happy"

I hate to shatter everyone's illusions that paying carers more will result in higher standards of care. I worked with qualified nurses who I wouldn't have trusted to look after a stray dog. Education and higher wages can't make up for an uncaring demeanour, stupidity, laziness, psychopathy and arrogance.

In my working years I witnessed terrible neglect and even abuse of elderly people - yes, I reported it (and lost my job as a result).

I would rather die before I lose my faculties and become unable to care for myself.