AIBU worry that the next generation are not actually that "accepting"

[Bonsaibreaker]

Long story short but chatting with 14 yo DD this evening about many subjects and a family members "views" came up. For background this family member in my view is racist and homophobic.
DD stated FM should be cancelled. Never allowed to speak, voice their opinion ever.

I pointed out to DD that freedom of speech means just that. We can all hold opinions others don't like but we are all free to voice, protest and gather regardless.
DD is of an age where discussion/debate is not an option apparently and if you are offended by another's views you just cancel them instead of debating or accepting their view as different to yours.

This worries me as instead of challenging different opinions the next generation are just silencing them.

YANBU = yes we are growing an intolerant society

YABU = They deserve to be cancelled

Had a very uncomfortable debate with PILs last summer where they insisted "you can't say anything anymore", people being too easily offended etc. I was interested to know what it was they wanted to say, that they felt they couldn't say. They couldn't give an example, just a feeling that others are too quickly shouted down. OK fair enough.

But then they went on to say "there are too many gay men kissing on tv" and what "the black people are doing to our statues" was wrong etc. They were linking this to being told off for saying policeman instead of officer. They are confused by a lot of things though!

I initially tried to engage with them regarding the bits in quotes above, but like your DD felt "why am I even discussing this?". I found it upsetting that they sat in my garden saying those things and it's still something that upsets me when I think of it now. But is that my problem or theirs?

Twilightermummy

Please ignore the mumsnet hype.

My children are not subjected to racisim on a daily basis by their uncle.

We don't expect to change his mind he is in his late 70s. However we hope that challenging him will change the culture and show his views to be wrong/outdated and the next generation will think differently.

Look I am black is it my job to change the world? No.
However I cannot sit on my arse and complain about it when doing nothing.
It's fucking tiring if I am honest but until we are all equal despite the colour of our skin I do what I have to. I am not only black I am a woman so its double the fight

There are several protected characteristics covered by the equality act. At times the rights of people holding these characteristics clash. So what happens then? There needs to be debate. Freedom of speech is of higher priority than any protected characteristic, if you allow cancel culture you are allowing the dominant culture ('liberal' white male in English speaking western countries.) to silence the views and concerns of other people. And that never ends well for those of us with protected characteristics.

I think the idea of "cancelling" someone spreads much further than to clearly wrong views, like racist and homophobic ones.
As they have been communicating with their friends quite a lot on-line and not so much in person, it applies to almost anything someone can say that they do not agree with.
If you are in the park with your friends and you do not want to play the game that A is suggesting, you have ro debate and go with the group's decision. It teaches you to debate, negotiate and compromise.
Now, when they chat online, they just block each other, and go separate ways. For the silliest discrepancy. I am 100% sure that you do not learn anything positive from this approach....

I think it is important to learn to put your point accross in words, face silly emotions you may get when not getting your way, and navigate those situations. Respect the other person, nevermind how different their view, is in the meantime their actions are not wrong. In US they actually teach tgem to debate heated subjects, which I think is great.
Not sure I will chase a teen to debate or challenge racist and homophobic views with the family member if they do not want to. But this "cancelling" thing, if it extends to other aspects, I think we have to stop it. Nothing good can come out of it.

@SmellyOldOwls

She's just at that age where she doesn't know much about debate or the value of it. It's not until college/uni that you're encouraged to think about free speech and debate . Younger teenagers think they're right about everything. The problem is when they're never encouraged to consider both sides of an argument and end up as adults thinking everyone who doesn't agree with them should be silenced.

This young teen is right though. OP has confirmed this family member is racist etc.

@Blackberrycream

YANBU I remember Nigel Farage going on question time. So many were against it but it was much more effective than ‘ cancelling ‘ him. He exposed himself, couldn’t justify his opinions and was a bit of a disaster for him. Intelligent debate is important. Shine a light on things. Some people are racist, homophobic etc. They won’t change by lack of engagement. As a pp pointed out, there has been a tendency to label opinions as racist, bigoted etc. where legitimate concerns are being expressed. Immigration levels and the current debate around trans issues immediately spring to mind. Anyone who is happy to ‘cancel’ others needs to think about who has the power to make those decisions and also needs to realise that if this trend continues, they may well be cancelled themselves at some point.

Exactly. His views didn’t really stand up to scrutiny. That did the job. Re: gender I personally feel gender identity ideology also doesn’t stand up to scrutiny which is why it’s adherents often try to use confusing language (I read at work today “it’s good practise to put pronouns on your email signature”- says who?) and try to shut down any disagreement

@hopingbutlosing

if it's racism, misogyny, homophobia etc. I will do everything in my power to shit them down and insult them.

The problem is, and the thing some people do not get is that too many people insult and mock and deride people who JUST have a difference of opinion, and are NOT being racist. This is the problem some of us are talking about. I wonder if some people are actually listening, or are just too busy just listening to the sound of their own voice?

As many posters have said, some people (far left/woke) refuse to listen to ANYbody's views unless they 100% coincide with theirs, and dismiss the most innocuous things as bigoted and racist.! Many of them are more bigoted than most of the people they deride.

I am seeing a few on this thread.

@SachaStark2

A teenage student of mine expressed their viewpoint quite well, I thought, with regards to hate speech a few months back. They said, “My existence is not a topic that is up for debate, and I won’t engage with somebody who thinks it is.”

Which is fair enough, I think.

The trouble is, OP, that you’re conflating cancel culture with hate speech: of course the former isn’t okay, but neither does freedom of speech protect the latter. Rightly.

Yup completely. It’s so easy to say you should debate them but I am so fucking sick of justifying my family’s existence that by and large that’s where i am at.

@33goingon64

Had a very uncomfortable debate with PILs last summer where they insisted "you can't say anything anymore", people being too easily offended etc. I was interested to know what it was they wanted to say, that they felt they couldn't say. They couldn't give an example, just a feeling that others are too quickly shouted down. OK fair enough.

But then they went on to say "there are too many gay men kissing on tv" and what "the black people are doing to our statues" was wrong etc. They were linking this to being told off for saying policeman instead of officer. They are confused by a lot of things though!

I initially tried to engage with them regarding the bits in quotes above, but like your DD felt "why am I even discussing this?". I found it upsetting that they sat in my garden saying those things and it's still something that upsets me when I think of it now. But is that my problem or theirs?

You may not have liked those views, but they are still entitled to them.

Another thing @33goingon64 it was mostly WHITE people pulling down the statues. Over privileged, young white people.

too many people insult and mock and deride people who JUST have a difference of opinion, and are NOT being racist.

@LittleDandelionClock

But the OP admitted the family member was racist.

@LittleDandelionClock

You may not have liked those views, but they are still entitled to them.

Wow.

I have literally debated my existence my whole life. Born 1977 in the UK to a white mother and black father.
As tired as I am and 40 years later my children shod mot be exposed to racisim they just are. Nothing mush has changed.

None of that takes away from my original point.
Yes uncle knobhead is a knobhead however rather than have him and his ilk silenced I want debate.
I want freedom of speech. I want you to say shit and me me tell you why you are wrong.

I want my children to be confident in challenging different pov not be afraid of them.

I mean, of course they're entitled to those views, but I'm entitled to think they're arseholes for holding them. And to teacher my children to challenge them or walk away.

Apologies needy cat on my knee so many typos!

@Cornettoninja

I think things are at a weird point of resetting, largely (imho) due to the internet and the ease of communication and being able to find people to agree with and validate almost any option.

I also think that we’ve perhaps put too much emphasis on the notion that everyone’s opinion has the same value regardless of what it’s based on and no one should have to feel bad because of someone else’s opinion.

It’s a weird time in all honesty.

yes! this absolutely!!

OP you say this I am trying to teach her she can choose to engage or not but that's not true is it? Other post say

I want DD to challenge them.
I want them to discuss and debate both points of view. I want DD to be able to debate why racisim and homophobia are wrong.
I dont want DD to just ignore him.
I want her to say no.
I want her to challenge him.
I dont want DD thinking she can be complacent.
Walking away is the easy option and changes very little.
I am trying to teach her that if you believe in something it's OK to stay and fight. You just have to fight the right way.
I expecty daughter to challenge things she feels passionate about.
I dont care if she challenges fox hunting or global warming. I just want her to challenge not cancel.
What I hope I am teaching her is not to walk away. I hope I am teaching her to fight for the opinions she holds and not back down to peer pressure or social media.

If your DD doesn't want to engage with this man then she doesn't have to. She's seen you try and fail for 14 YEARS so why should she continue to try when she knows it's futile?

@LittleDandelionClock

Another thing *@33goingon64* it was mostly WHITE people pulling down the statues. Over privileged, young white people.

That was my thought too. There is nothing wrong with different opinions on those events. I do see an issue with the statues as there is something celebratory about them. I don’t want them torn down though as I worry the revisionism will then extend to art and literature. That’s my opinion. I can see other points of view have validity too. Some of the older members on one side of my family had what I would call racist views. They have mellowed as they are essentially nice people who hadn’t had much exposure. They definitely have exposure now ( it’s a mixed Jamaican and Irish family)and the turnaround has happened naturally. Personally, I find privileged, white middle class social warriors extremely irritating. Things improve by us all being tolerant and self reflective. The self reflection is often quite lacking.

This worries me as instead of challenging different opinions the next generation are just silencing them.

Silencing? Or just refusing to engage with bullshit.

I want them to discuss and debate both points of view. I want DD to be able to debate why racisim and homophobia are wrong.

Debating with racists/homophobes is pointless. They aren’t going to change their view and all that happens is you have to hear more of their hate filled bullshit. Funny how your love of freedom of speech doesn’t extend to your daughter’s right to have an opinion on how racists should shut the fuck up.

She does want to but the current "cancel" culture makes the youth of today lazy and complacent.

I 100% agree with you that everyone is entitled to freedom of speech and that we all should engage and try to challenge ignorant or ill thought out opinions with facts, and, indeed with differing opinions.

I disagree with this ^ statement though. suggesting that "the youth" don't care is a massive generalisation and just as bad as all the other generalisations and stereotypes that I am sure you have stood up against all your life.

YANBU = yes we are growing an intolerant society

YABU = They deserve to be cancelled

I can't vote as neither of this are right.
I agree with your sentiments that (where it doesn't put them in danger) people should always challenge lazy and ignorant statements about anything that is unfair and / or untrue.
However, just because your dd said he shouldn't be allowed to speak / offer his thoughts, that does not mean any 'generation' think that - it just means that your dd thinks that.

it was mostly WHITE people pulling down the statues. Over privileged, young white people.

Because those who weren’t white were being forced to go to their primarily low paying key worker jobs. Are you really suggesting there was no support among black communities for the pulling down of statues celebrating people who succeeded using slavery?

It's not hate speech, they weren't personally targeting people, but surely it's homophobia if they thought gay people were unnatural and wrong because of who they love? What else would you call it?

I hope I am teaching her to fight for the opinions she holds and not back down to peer pressure or social media.

Nobody needs to fight for their opinions.

If your DD doesn't want to engage with this man then she doesn't have to. She's seen you try and fail for 14 YEARS so why should she continue to try when she knows it's futile?

She doesn't have to.
Truth is she loves him. It may be hard for you to understand and I am not expecting you to. He is a kind man who does not see his views on immigration or gay relationships as directly related to his own family. However they do matter.

DD does not want to cancel him however she thinks anyone who holds his opinions should be cancelled.
Her uncle will discuss why he believes what he does. His views are outdated and factually incorrect but he will discuss it.
He is not a monster but he is wrong. Can't we say he's wrong without calling for his head?

@BoredZelda

it was mostly WHITE people pulling down the statues. Over privileged, young white people.

Because those who weren’t white were being forced to go to their primarily low paying key worker jobs. Are you really suggesting there was no support among black communities for the pulling down of statues celebrating people who succeeded using slavery?

Sorry, but I actually find that statement quite insulting and racist. I won’t cancel you though…