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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU worry that the next generation are not actually that "accepting"

466 replies

Bonsaibreaker · 20/10/2021 19:33

Long story short but chatting with 14 yo DD this evening about many subjects and a family members "views" came up. For background this family member in my view is racist and homophobic.
DD stated FM should be cancelled. Never allowed to speak, voice their opinion ever.

I pointed out to DD that freedom of speech means just that. We can all hold opinions others don't like but we are all free to voice, protest and gather regardless.
DD is of an age where discussion/debate is not an option apparently and if you are offended by another's views you just cancel them instead of debating or accepting their view as different to yours.

This worries me as instead of challenging different opinions the next generation are just silencing them.

YANBU = yes we are growing an intolerant society

YABU = They deserve to be cancelled

OP posts:
Original poster
Bonsaibreaker · 20/10/2021 21:10

Why have you decided to teach your daughter that other people thinking she is subhuman is okay and merely a difference of opinion?

That just shows how little you know or understand.

OP posts:
hopingbutlosing · 20/10/2021 21:11

There is no need to "engage in debate" with racists, misogynists or homophobes. Is this really a question? Are we opening this to debate?

Heiferr · 20/10/2021 21:12

@Marchingredsoldiers

Cancelling is very powerful. It is like casting someone on desert island. It is an attempt to cut someone out of their community, which humans need to survive. We are hard-wired to interact with others and removal of that interaction is pretty cruel.

Wishing to cancel someone is as lacking in empathy as the other person being rasist. It is used as a punishment because the other person has broken some social code.

Obviously it doesn't work like that in real life because it would need everyone to cut the "offender" off. And that doesn't happen. But that is what the OP's dd is trying to do. Teenagers are still developing empathy. This could be an opportunity to train it.

You're honestly suggesting that a teenager with black heritage should have her feelings about a family member that has racist viewpoints used as empathy training rather than being able to exercise her autonomy about who she interacts with?

I'm actually in awe of Mumsnet sometimes...

Maverickess · 20/10/2021 21:12

@user1745

Maybe "accepting" isn't the right word here because we shouldn't have to accept racist or homophobic views but I agree that the instinct to simply "cancel" people is troubling. How do you distinguish between a view that is genuinely abhorrent (e.g racism) and a view which may seem abhorrent to some but actually may have some value and should be discussed (e.g the idea that female-only spaces should be preserved)? If we encourage the next generation to view "cancelling" as a reasonable reaction to anything they don't like they're not going to make any distinction between those two things.
This is my concern about it, cancelling other people without listening to their pov leads to just cancelling of anyone who doesn't hold the same view as you without even thinking about the opposing viewpoints and if they have any merit at all.

That said I don't think homophobia and racism should be tolerated, but it's only become that way through listening and examining other points of view, it wasn't really that long ago that it was against the law to be gay and racism was perfectly acceptable and even encouraged - what if the views opposing that had just been cancelled?

Cuddlyrottweiler · 20/10/2021 21:12

@Bringham

You agree they are racist and homophobic though? Do you think DC should just listen to their beliefs?

The right to freedom of speech doesnr cover hate speech

This.
hopingbutlosing · 20/10/2021 21:15

Exactly. We are raising a generation of people who think that if someone doesn't think the same as them, they should just shut them down, and insult them.

@LittleDandelionClock

if it's racism, misogyny, homophobia etc. I will do everything in my power to shit them down and insult them.

Essen · 20/10/2021 21:17

People in real life have such a mixture of views that I would find it very hard to unravel their views and work out who to cancel. It is also really easy to say what people want to hear but act very differently- I think a lot of people are very naive about that.

ejhhhhh · 20/10/2021 21:17

If your daughter has decided that she no longer wants to listen to your FM's racist and homophobic bilge, imo she's come to a fairly reasonable decision and her wishes should be respected. A racist homophobe wouldn't be welcome in my home, I don't know why you continue to tolerate your FM tbh. I think you're approaching this all wrong. Rather than recognising your FM for the odious human being that they actually are, and letting them experience the consequences of airing their views, such as no longer having a relationship with family who think those views are abhorrent, you're tolerating him and turning this into a debate about cancel culture. Your daughter isn't "cancelling him", she just doesn't wish to spend time with him if he's going to be racist and homophobic in her presence, which is a perfectly valid response to someone expressing those views.

Siameasy · 20/10/2021 21:17

But what is hate speech? I’ve been accused of hate speech before. It’s meaningless. It’s become another thought terminating cliche.

Fact is - anyone can say anything they want. If they break the law, they may be prosecuted. I personally do think that social disapproval has led to change in the past. Think about the attitude towards fur, for instance.

Original poster
Bonsaibreaker · 20/10/2021 21:18

They have freedom of speech. We all should.

Do we like what they are saying? No but silencing their voice completely is not the answer as it creates an echo chamber.

I am trying to teach my daughter that she may hear views and opinions that do not match her own and if she has the beans than talk back. If not then walk away. However silencing opposing views is not the answer.

OP posts:
Heiferr · 20/10/2021 21:18

@LittleDandelionClock but the OP states that the FM has racist views. Not differing political views, racist views. Feel free to break down nuance in political stances all you want, but the OP said the FM has racist views. That simply isn't a difference of opinion, it is racism.

hopingbutlosing · 20/10/2021 21:19

I don't think you know what freedom of speech means OP. It means your vile family member can't be censored by the state for his or her abhorrent views (unless they amount to hate speech), but your daughter can certainly hope they suffer the consequences of being "cancelled".

Silenceisgolden20 · 20/10/2021 21:21

@LittleDandelionClock

The non far left are just sitting quietly?

Can't seem to copy and paste your shite paragraph

What a load of wank

Kosmin · 20/10/2021 21:22

@Bonsaibreaker
I pointed out to DD that freedom of speech means just that.

People who are "cancelled" aren't having usually their rights taken away. Freedom of speech doesn't entitle you to an audience.

Original poster
Bonsaibreaker · 20/10/2021 21:22

A racist homophobe wouldn't be welcome in my home, I don't know why you continue to tolerate your FM tbh. I think you're approaching this all wrong.

Just to clarify this is not a person I welcome in my home. It is family get together situation.
While I have previously limited DDs exposure she is older and needs to learn how to deal with racisim both direct and indirect. Its a part of everyday life. See it for what it is and deal accordingly is my view.

OP posts:
Kosmin · 20/10/2021 21:22

^ aren't usually having

Original poster
Bonsaibreaker · 20/10/2021 21:24

People who are "cancelled" aren't having usually their rights taken away. Freedom of speech doesn't entitle you to an audience.

Nobody said it did. You just have the right to say it even if it's wrong.

OP posts:
NoDecentHandlesLeft · 20/10/2021 21:24

*DD stated FM should be cancelled. Never allowed to speak, voice their opinion ever.

I pointed out to DD that freedom of speech means just that. We can all hold opinions others don't like but we are all free to voice, protest and gather regardless*

Freedom of speech means the government can't stop them (unless it's hate speech). It doesn't mean you or your daughter can't tell your FM that you don't like their views and don't want to hear them.

oknowimscared · 20/10/2021 21:24

Even as an adult I found it difficult to discuss my views / stand up to a racist, homophobic, transphobic uncle. He had a way of laughing things off and making out I was being “woke” 🙄 and over sensitive (at family gatherings - so hard to really confront without causing problems (and he was always careful to not go further than what the Daily Mail might say - so I’d be the unreasonable one if I’d ever kicked off. He knew exactly what he was doing. I went NC. Best decision I ever made. Don’t put your DC through it. There’s enough battles to get through in life.

Original poster
Bonsaibreaker · 20/10/2021 21:25

hopingbutlosing

Thanks for that.
Telling me I am thick is nice.

OP posts:
Siameasy · 20/10/2021 21:26

@hopingbutlosing

I don't think you know what freedom of speech means OP. It means your vile family member can't be censored by the state for his or her abhorrent views (unless they amount to hate speech), but your daughter can certainly hope they suffer the consequences of being "cancelled".
“Cancelling” - we used to call it shunning. And yes I think facing social disapproval or rejection are natural consequences for many controversial views. Hate speech isn’t real though and the term is subjective and unhelpful. Hate crimes may be recorded where certain things are said in public. In a home, less likely.
ejhhhhh · 20/10/2021 21:26

And if she wanted to ignore him at a family event would that be OK? She doesn't have to debate with him, she's free to not engage. To refuse to be polite would be perfectly valid, because he isn't a nice person.

Silenceisgolden20 · 20/10/2021 21:26

@oknowimscared

Even as an adult I found it difficult to discuss my views / stand up to a racist, homophobic, transphobic uncle. He had a way of laughing things off and making out I was being “woke” 🙄 and over sensitive (at family gatherings - so hard to really confront without causing problems (and he was always careful to not go further than what the Daily Mail might say - so I’d be the unreasonable one if I’d ever kicked off. He knew exactly what he was doing. I went NC. Best decision I ever made. Don’t put your DC through it. There’s enough battles to get through in life.
Yeah this is gaslighting and is abusive. You did the right thing
hopingbutlosing · 20/10/2021 21:26

@Bonsaibreaker

People who are "cancelled" aren't having usually their rights taken away. Freedom of speech doesn't entitle you to an audience.

Nobody said it did. You just have the right to say it even if it's wrong.

Yes and your daughter has the right to think they should be "cancelled". Which actually only applies to someone with a public platform to behind with.
mbosnz · 20/10/2021 21:26

We work on the premise that people have the right to freedom of speech (within the law), but they do not have the right to an audience.

We have the right to politely change the subject, if that doesn't work, to bluntly say we'd prefer not to discuss this issue with you (if we know that they cannot discuss and debate, rather than rant, monologue and get bent out of shape when you don't agree with every pearl they drop), and if all else fails, to say, get the fuck out, we're done.

We have so many daily fail members of family in three continents, it's bloody tiring.