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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Gordon Brown for PM?

308 replies

Wilkolampshade · 15/10/2021 19:22

I don't know, just watching the Blair/Brown documentary, does anyone think we could/should bring back Gordon Brown as leader of the Labour Party for a shot at P. M?
YABU... Absolutely not, what ARE you thinking?!?!
YANBU.... Why not, how much worse could it get?

OP posts:
Tealightsandd · 16/10/2021 16:17

Resorting to unwarranted offensive personal insults suggests a lack of coherent argument @BoredZelda

daimbarsatemydogsbone · 16/10/2021 16:18

[quote rrhuth]@daimbarsatemydogsbone what is my bigoted assertion? That I don't like xenophobic people? Confused[/quote]
no, your assertions characterising anyone who raises any questions about immigration as xenophobes, and adding insults about their mathematical skills just for good (sneering) measure.

Tealightsandd · 16/10/2021 16:20

@BoredZelda

Any legitimate concern about immigration - or more accurately, the way it's been (mis)managed is instantly dismissed with accusations of xenophobia, etc.

This is untrue and usually spouted by people who are actually racist. I’ve seen dozens of debated, well thought out, well argued for and against immigration where nobody is called racist. The only ones I’ve seen where people bang on about being called racist is when they say things like “those immigrants come here and scrounge of benefits and steal our jobs” (as if both things can be true) then when called out whine that nobody can speak about immigration without being called racist.

How is calling for investment in infrastructure and affordable secure housing (plus protection of employment conditions and wages) to meet the needs of an expanded population 'arguing against immigration'? These things are needed for all - British born and immigrants.
Tealightsandd · 16/10/2021 16:22

And that is exactly what has been and continues to be the problem with discussing immigration. Wilful (or, possibly accidental) misinterpretation and resorting to slurs and insults.

It needs to change.

Flipflopblowout · 16/10/2021 16:35

He flogged the country's gold reserves last time what can he do to us next time?

rrhuth · 16/10/2021 16:45

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

I think xenophobes who can't understand the financial impact of immigration are bad at maths. If they were good at maths, they would be able to understand/accept it.

You can prioritise other things, but that fact is a fact - immigration grows the economy.

rrhuth · 16/10/2021 16:50

I also haven't said anyone who raises questions is a xenophobe, I've said I dislike xenophobes.

Badbadbunny · 16/10/2021 17:07

@Tealightsandd

How does highlighting the previous governments appalling record excuse the current government?
I don't know, but Labour spent 13 years blaming everything on Thatcher.
BoredZelda · 16/10/2021 17:27

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

  1. It was a storm, whipped up by the media and his PR team insisted he apologised as damage control as it was overshadowing the election campaign and it is important to make sure that doesn’t happen. He never wanted to meet with her in the first place. Nothing cynical about it, anyone else in the public eye would have done the same.

Resorting to unwarranted offensive personal insults suggests a lack of coherent argument @BoredZelda**

I assume you are blind to the irony in that?

How is calling for investment in infrastructure and affordable secure housing (plus protection of employment conditions and wages) to meet the needs of an expanded population 'arguing against immigration'? These things are needed for all - British born and immigrants.

Where did I say that was the case? If you want to have a go, at least try and make it for something I’ve actually said?

stuckdownahole · 16/10/2021 17:30

[quote rrhuth]@daimbarsatemydogsbone

I think xenophobes who can't understand the financial impact of immigration are bad at maths. If they were good at maths, they would be able to understand/accept it.

You can prioritise other things, but that fact is a fact - immigration grows the economy.[/quote]
This is what you guys always miss. If we are pro immigration because it grows the economy ... if we are solely interested in immigrants as economic units ... then we should control immigration. We should let in all the high value immigrants and reject the rest.

So wilkommen to German finance professionals and piss off to Bulgarian manual workers. The door is open to Indian doctors, but don't think you can bring your elderly mother to live with you - she's no use to us!

The point I'm making is that there are more facets to immigration policy than pure profitability. You refuse to debate, except on your terms, and accuse any opponent of prejudice and bad faith. You won't win anyone over by shouting "Shut up bigot!" but I suspect that is the extent of your capabilities.

Feedingthebirds1 · 16/10/2021 17:31

You can prioritise other things, but that fact is a fact - immigration grows the economy.

Overall this is true, not least because many immigrants work in highly paid specialties such as medicine. However simply to say it is an economic benefit without qualification is to ignore the fact that there are some areas where significant immigration leads to greater deprivation and overcrowding. Areas where immigrants are poorly educated, speak little or no English, can only get very low paid work at best, no work at worst, and where they form aggressive and hostile ghettos. See (The Casey Review) and the unrest in the Sheffield Hallam region between different ethnic groups.

Now this may, as Casey suggests, be a failure of successive governments to implement a thought out plan to manage immigration and social cohesion, but it is also true, as again Casey notes, that many immigrants bring with them strongly held views on the role of women, on tolerance for others, and whose values differ from those of communities already living there. It is also not disputed that in areas where immigrants are found in large numbers there is a perceived unfairness in the allocation of scarce housing resources.

So I think we have to be careful about being too dogmatic that immigration is of national benefit without considering a more nuanced, local, view.

The proposition that we need immigration to care and provide for the elderly also bears scrutiny. Those younger immigrants providing those services will one day be elderly themselves and also needing care. Where will that come from if not through further immigration and yet more pressure on resources? Can population expansion be unlimited, or will there come a point where need for resources outstrips supply and simply cannot be met?

daimbarsatemydogsbone · 16/10/2021 17:45

@Feedingthebirds1

You can prioritise other things, but that fact is a fact - immigration grows the economy.

Overall this is true, not least because many immigrants work in highly paid specialties such as medicine. However simply to say it is an economic benefit without qualification is to ignore the fact that there are some areas where significant immigration leads to greater deprivation and overcrowding. Areas where immigrants are poorly educated, speak little or no English, can only get very low paid work at best, no work at worst, and where they form aggressive and hostile ghettos. See (The Casey Review) and the unrest in the Sheffield Hallam region between different ethnic groups.

Now this may, as Casey suggests, be a failure of successive governments to implement a thought out plan to manage immigration and social cohesion, but it is also true, as again Casey notes, that many immigrants bring with them strongly held views on the role of women, on tolerance for others, and whose values differ from those of communities already living there. It is also not disputed that in areas where immigrants are found in large numbers there is a perceived unfairness in the allocation of scarce housing resources.

So I think we have to be careful about being too dogmatic that immigration is of national benefit without considering a more nuanced, local, view.

The proposition that we need immigration to care and provide for the elderly also bears scrutiny. Those younger immigrants providing those services will one day be elderly themselves and also needing care. Where will that come from if not through further immigration and yet more pressure on resources? Can population expansion be unlimited, or will there come a point where need for resources outstrips supply and simply cannot be met?

Precisely - or you could just call anyone else a xenophobe who is bad at maths :)
daimbarsatemydogsbone · 16/10/2021 17:48

[quote rrhuth]@daimbarsatemydogsbone

I think xenophobes who can't understand the financial impact of immigration are bad at maths. If they were good at maths, they would be able to understand/accept it.

You can prioritise other things, but that fact is a fact - immigration grows the economy.[/quote]
You seem to be (possibly deliberately) confusing maths skills and an ability to cite research that supports your contention (and characterise it as "fact" as if facts have or need no context).

That's a simplistic view at best and at worst is just prejudice of the exact kind you're accusing others of.

daimbarsatemydogsbone · 16/10/2021 17:50

@BoredZelda
So in your version 3, Gordon still believes she was a "bigoted woman", but pretends otherwise and issues a fake apology, is that right?

Tealightsandd · 16/10/2021 18:00

And like I said earlier, the failure to cater for and accommodate an expanded population is not only about immigration. We've all seen the threads on here and media articles complaining about the 'influx' of people from London and the wider south east - and the consequent pressures on infrastructure and housing.

Some are, like many immigrants, seeking a better life, others have been priced out or socially cleansed (eg. some London boroughs displace homeless families to other parts of the country).

Who are the 'locals' in the SW, East of England, and the North? Born and bred?

It's certainly not about race. Not least because many of the 'incomer outsiders' are white British.

We need investment in infrastructure, schools, libraries, social services, mental health, roads, public transport, and housing. And we need job and training opportunities with wage and conditions of employment protectiobs across the country. For all who are here and all who come here.

Tealightsandd · 16/10/2021 18:11

Things that should've/should happen for example. Ending right to buy. Replacing lost social housing. Not cutting housing benefits. Not closing hospitals - in fact, building more. Improving roads and public transport across the country.

We should use the extra tax revenue and growth economy that immigration brings to build more hospitals, schools, improve infrastructure, properly fund our public services. And (very important) build more social housing.

Chloemol · 16/10/2021 18:13

Nope

JustAnotherPoster00 · 16/10/2021 19:08

We should use the extra tax revenue and growth economy that immigration brings to build more hospitals, schools, improve infrastructure, properly fund our public services. And (very important) build more social housing.

Absolutely but we currently have a populist right wing government to expect more transfer of public wealth into private hands and the anti immigrant rhetoric to step up, they need you looking over there while they transfer the assets

TrampolineForMrKite · 16/10/2021 19:20

Going to lower the tone now and say I always thought he was weirdly sexy.

Gordon Brown: Fit.

Gordon Brown for PM?
TrampolineForMrKite · 16/10/2021 19:21

Also, you lot will appreciate this.

Gordon Brown for PM?
RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 16/10/2021 19:28

@TrampolineForMrKite

Also, you lot will appreciate this.
Thats not true is it 😀

Very funny

Badbadbunny · 16/10/2021 19:53

@Tealightsandd

Things that should've/should happen for example. Ending right to buy. Replacing lost social housing. Not cutting housing benefits. Not closing hospitals - in fact, building more. Improving roads and public transport across the country.

We should use the extra tax revenue and growth economy that immigration brings to build more hospitals, schools, improve infrastructure, properly fund our public services. And (very important) build more social housing.

The extra tax revenue was used to help reduce the deficit.
jgw1 · 16/10/2021 19:53

Squirrel

ArblemarchTFruitbat · 16/10/2021 20:41

I don't think we've had this yet: Grin

Dontgetyerknicksinatwist · 16/10/2021 20:43

He’s got to be better than the utter lune we have as pm at the moment.

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