Gordon Brown for PM?

[Wilkolampshade]

I don't know, just watching the Blair/Brown documentary, does anyone think we could/should bring back Gordon Brown as leader of the Labour Party for a shot at P. M?
YABU... Absolutely not, what ARE you thinking?!?!
YANBU.... Why not, how much worse could it get?

I'm all ears about these demographic shifts
No you aren't - you've already dismissed the idea.

@rrhuth

Our benefits systems are almost uniquely not generally related to contributions all benefits entitlement is national policy choice

EU migrants were not entitled to benefits in the way you are claiming.

Once again you seem to have created something in your mind - pray tell me what way I "was claiming" anything exactly? You can't because I didn't.

Brown had good ideas but his implementation was shockingly bad. He had no foresight at all about the entirely foreseeable "unforeseen" consequences. Typical brainy person, he had the intelligence but failed miserably on the practical side.

He didn't need foresight for right to buy. The misery and suffering already caused by it was happening in front of him. Why didn't he end it?

In fact he did the opposite. He made the housing crisis worse...

... Through his social cleansing aka housing benefit cuts. He claimed it would compel landlords lower rents. It didn't take an intellectual to know that already (even before the cuts) landlords were turning away lower income tenants. Which they could afford to do - because of increasing demand for housing (due in no small part to the failures of governments including his and Blair's to build more social housing).

Now just the small matter of bridging the critical labour shortages in the meantime...

Very immediate short-term aside, we need to get on with doing what should've been done 30 years ago (and certainly as soon as the Brexit vote result was known).

Set-up training and apprenticeship opportunities.

Many many roles can be learnt on the job. It always used to be so. Employers need to start investing long-term in their employees again. Juniors training on the job, working their way up.

We need to start valuing the so-called low skilled essential jobs again.

Employers need to offer decent working conditions and wages above poverty pay.

And - crucially - boost the economy and construction industry with a massive social housing build (because employers can only afford to pay so high and will never be able to keep up with spiralling private housing prices).

We have rising unemployment - million+, and it's set to increase.

We also recently welcomed 20,000 refugees from Afghanistan.

Some of the unemployed and refugees will be unable to work for various reasons - but many can and want to.

Our unemployed and our refugees are not useless or incapable.

They simply need a chance.

Train them up, pay enough, ensure decent non exploitative conditions of employment.

Of course the key is to also tackle the public health housing and homelessness emergency. We need to buy and build lots of social housing.

Good training and employment opportunities and affordable secure homes, and we're on our way to a better future.

@TSSDNCOP

If going back in time is a thing, I think Labour needs to go and get the Milliband brother that should've got the vote in 2010.

Should've been Johnson (Alan).

Burnham, actually think he might have potential - for the future if, and only if, Starmer doesn't work out after being given a fair chance. They could work well together really, if they were both willing, as part of a more unified team Labour. He'd need to reassess some of his policies particularly the stoke division tactic (and acknowledge past mistakes from his time in cabinet), but we all learn from mistakes.

@Tealightsandd I recall Alan Johnson was well thought of by many, including the Civil Servants in his Department. Not sure he wanted the top job or was willing to be ruthless.

I never understood the presumption that criticism of Ed Milliband for daring to stand against his brother and it being dressed as betrayal. The notion that it was the elder's right seemed odd at the time.

@Tealightsandd

Brown had good ideas but his implementation was shockingly bad. He had no foresight at all about the entirely foreseeable "unforeseen" consequences. Typical brainy person, he had the intelligence but failed miserably on the practical side.

He didn't need foresight for right to buy. The misery and suffering already caused by it was happening in front of him. Why didn't he end it?

In fact he did the opposite. He made the housing crisis worse...

... Through his social cleansing aka housing benefit cuts. He claimed it would compel landlords lower rents. It didn't take an intellectual to know that already (even before the cuts) landlords were turning away lower income tenants. Which they could afford to do - because of increasing demand for housing (due in no small part to the failures of governments including his and Blair's to build more social housing).

I agree. Same with taxes. He cut the tax for limited companies and was then surprised when the likes of window cleaners and dog walkers converted themselves into limited companies to save tax. It was blindingly obvious that would happen, but Brown and his sidekick Dawn Primarolo didn't think people would do that just to save tax (She said that in the Commons!). As I say, no practical common sense.

@Tealightsandd

We have rising unemployment - million+, and it's set to increase.

We also recently welcomed 20,000 refugees from Afghanistan.

Some of the unemployed and refugees will be unable to work for various reasons - but many can and want to.

Our unemployed and our refugees are not useless or incapable.

They simply need a chance.

Train them up, pay enough, ensure decent non exploitative conditions of employment.

Of course the key is to also tackle the public health housing and homelessness emergency. We need to buy and build lots of social housing.

Good training and employment opportunities and affordable secure homes, and we're on our way to a better future.

No one is saying anyone is useless, but we do need to accept that the pool of unemployed people is not well aligned with the vacancies, in terms of education, skills and geography.

We can get somewhere better in time, but it would take a) investment and b) policy focus.

Neither are happening at all under this government, there is no plan to invest in education etc. - everything is going to be cut.

Levelling up ( ) is looking almost entirely about capital schemes.

Does levelling up mean everyone ends up the height of the tallest?

@jgw1

Does levelling up mean everyone ends up the height of the tallest?

no one actually knows what it means, least of all Johnson

@rrhuth That is something on which you and I fully agree.

You are out of your mind 🤯🤯🤯🤯

[quote daimbarsatemydogsbone]@rrhuth That is something on which you and I fully agree.[/quote]
I'm glad we end on a harmonious note!

I never understood the presumption that criticism of Ed Milliband for daring to stand against his brother and it being dressed as betrayal. The notion that it was the elder's right seemed odd at the time.

I remember so many people at the time when Corbyn was leader of the opposition saying it was a personality cult and in the next sentence saying David Milliband should have got the leadership and not Ed, with no hint of irony

[quote Zilla1]@Tealightsandd I recall Alan Johnson was well thought of by many, including the Civil Servants in his Department. Not sure he wanted the top job or was willing to be ruthless.

I never understood the presumption that criticism of Ed Milliband for daring to stand against his brother and it being dressed as betrayal. The notion that it was the elder's right seemed odd at the time.[/quote]
I always found the Milliband brothers thing weird. I think David Milliband was impressive in many ways, would probably have been a good leader but honestly sulking because his little brother beat him really makes me question his abilities.

People seem to misunderstand the time lag of politics. What the finances look like while you are in power (barring global crises like Covid which has had an immediate effect) are often more a reflection of your predecessors than your decisions, as the impacts of policies take time to wash through.

A television documentary is going to be highly subjective and reflect the views of the people making it.

Look at the economic intentions and impacts of the policies Gordon Brown implemented as treasurer and pm. Decide for yourself whether those are intentions and impacts you would be happy with.

For example...

Gordon brown introduced working tax credit.

Great! You think. An income boost for the poorest - what's not to like?

Actually all this did was allow employers to pay unsustainably low wages to employees. In an ideal world this would mean more job creation, in reality, it simply means higher corporate profits, which tend to flow to the wealthiest.

It also has a negative impact on productivity and allowed Britain to become trapped in a low wage economy. If you have to pay more to attract staff, zombie or badly run businesses don't survive and well run ones do. If you have to pay staff more to attract them, they are more valuable, an employer also needs to get more from the employee so its worth investing in training them, an overall productivity increases.

Look what's happened recently. I was against Brexit generally but the one aspect of the EU I disliked was the labour oversupply it created. Having left the EU, wages are rising in many areas that depended on cheap EU labour suppressing wages.

I honestly believe WTC suppressed wages for those at the bottom and allowed more profits to go to those at the top, contributing to the current hideous wealth gap we have in the UK, so despite being a long term labour party member, Gordon brown would not be who I would choose to reinstate.

The other thing wrong with tax credits, is, as mentioned by a PP who was an HMRC employee - it is hideously complex and requires armies of staff to make it work properly. We should be simplifying tax and benefits not making them more complex. Although I disagree with some of how it’s been done, this was the idea of UC - to combine and simplify the daft number of different benefits people had to navigate (and staff had to administer)

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

The other thing wrong with tax credits, is, as mentioned by a PP who was an HMRC employee - it is hideously complex and requires armies of staff to make it work properly. We should be simplifying tax and benefits not making them more complex. Although I disagree with some of how it’s been done, this was the idea of UC - to combine and simplify the daft number of different benefits people had to navigate (and staff had to administer)

I fully agree. Also, it was a bit stupid to give the admin to HMRC who are hopelessly incompetent at the best of times. Brown just called them "tax credits" and gave them to HMRC, in the hope of setting them against tax revenue rather than calling them benefits to make the figures look better on a global scale, but he got caught out and wasn't allowed to do that.

The implementation was also crazy. Starting with a £2.5k income disregard which was way too small and caused untold harm to low earners with variable incomes, then he "corrected" it to far by increasing the income disregard too far to a whopping £25k which cost the country a small fortune in giving tax credits to people who didn't need them anymore.

The equivalent of Tax Credits existed before Gordon Brown. The first similar scheme was introduced in the 1970s.

@julieca

The equivalent of Tax Credits existed before Gordon Brown. The first similar scheme was introduced in the 1970s.

Yes, there was, but it was very different and it was a lot less generous.

I’ve met him, he’s not actually dour he’s just very quiet and a really nice man. He’d also really intelligent which naked him infinitely better than Bojo the clown.

It wasnt different, just less generous. Family credit for example in 70s. It is like saying that PIP is the first disability benefit there was. It isn't. There have been others. The exact details differ, but the broad aim is the same.

He’d also really intelligent which naked him infinitely better.

Pass the brain bleach!!