Gordon Brown for PM?

[Wilkolampshade]

I don't know, just watching the Blair/Brown documentary, does anyone think we could/should bring back Gordon Brown as leader of the Labour Party for a shot at P. M?
YABU... Absolutely not, what ARE you thinking?!?!
YANBU.... Why not, how much worse could it get?

If Gordon was right to call the woman a bigot - why did he apologise?

It amuses me when people excuse the current government for all sorts of things because covid is a global crisis but blame the Labour government entirely for a worldwide financial crisis.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

Didn’t he introduce tax credits? For that reason alone, I’d vote elsewhere or not at all.

Exactly, this guy create a low wage economy that we have not been able to shake off for 20 years. He created a culture of dependency where people could never earn enough, relied on benefits. All the while businesses didn’t invest and increase productivity. Low wages and low productivity. Brown did deep deep damage to economy. The chickens are only just coming home to roost.

How does highlighting the previous governments appalling record excuse the current government?

@countrygirl99

It amuses me when people excuse the current government for all sorts of things because covid is a global crisis but blame the Labour government entirely for a worldwide financial crisis.

Indeed - it is ridiculous. Given the last 30 years it’s very clear that neither party has a right to claim financial competence. Probably most egregious is the Conservatives claim to be about low taxation - when they almost always manage to increase tax.

Bring back Gordon! Always liked him.

He drove the country into the ground last time he was PM, really don't need his incompetence again.

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

I couldn't care less if I offend xenophobic people. I really dislike xenophobic people, and it is not my problem if they're upset about that.

Lol. You are joking right?

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

If Gordon was right to call the woman a bigot - why did he apologise?

To win the election

I'm also not prepared to endlessly debate facts with idiotic xenophobes. Economic migrants contribute more in tax than they take out.

The only people who refuse to accept that are xenophobes. Who can fuck off.

If people voted for Brexit because someone like me doesn't want to listen to xenophobic bullshit, that's their problem. The people who voted for Brexit are responsible for Brexit.

@NursieBernard

John Smith and Gordon Brown would have made a brilliant Prime Minister and Chancellor pairing. Gordon Brown is my top Prime Minister in recent history.

John Smith

It's interesting to note the differing narratives about pretty much the same issues.

Any legitimate concern about immigration - or more accurately, the way it's been (mis)managed is instantly dismissed with accusations of xenophobia, etc.

Yet when priced out families and individuals from London and the south east move to the SW, East, or North, it's seen as perfectly fine to bemoan the impact on locals (presumably 'locals' are born and bred?).

Also see the hypocrisy of the Lib Dems. All very pro increased population... until it comes to their own affluent spacious backyard. They recently won a by-election on NIMBYism.

An expanded population absolutely does impact on current residents - but particularly on the poorest.

Fine if it's catered for. But it wasn't and isn't. And that lack of accomodation harms immigrants every bit as much as British born. Because, you know, they too want and deserve an affordable and decent quality of life.

Infrastructure - schools, public transport, GP surgeries and hospitals (with easy access for local people), social care - including children's services and for the disabled of all ages - mental health, criminal justice, libraries. And (vitally) protection of employment conditions and wages AND sufficient supply of affordable and secure housing.

There does exist sadly a minority of racists. And that is disgusting and unacceptable. But the vast majority of people raising concerns simply want the same as newly arrived immigrants. A decent quality of life.

Immigration isn't the problem. It is how it is managed.

Lots of people whining pensions and gold, but you have to frame his decisions in the context of what was known at the time and not what we know now.

The gold was sold because the treasury determined it to be too volatile and in fact the sharp rise in price in the weeks that followed was a direct result of it being sold and only served to prove the point. The prices fell soon after. The sale allowed the U.K. to pay off a substantial part of the national debt and invest in better performing currencies. You have to look at the longer term for those sorts of investments.

And when people talk about a pension raid, do they actually know what happened? Most people I challenge have no idea beyond the Mail’s screaming headlines. But his “raid” has put £118 billion back in to the treasury. Given people seem to think these gold standard pensions are the preserve of the wealthy, presumably they are happy that the tax relief once given has now been removed?

I always saw Brown as a relatively safe pair of hands. He was not responsible for the global crash and was not the only world leader who either didn’t see it coming or was powerless to stop it or protect against it. The seeds of the crash were well planted (and ignored) when Blair was in power. In fact, the tories deregulation of the banks was what started it.

I’m a floating voter and not wedded to any single party, but if I could bring back any leaders right now, I’d vote Brown or Major back in.

[quote rrhuth]@daimbarsatemydogsbone

I couldn't care less if I offend xenophobic people. I really dislike xenophobic people, and it is not my problem if they're upset about that.[/quote]
You are making bigoted assertions - can’t you see the hypocrisy in that?

We need to reframe this whole immigration debate as critical nuance is lost when it is considered aside from socio-economic factors. It is of course empirically true that immigration has been a net benefit to the economy.

It is also remarkably easy for me to be unreservedly positive about immigration for when a minority family moves in on my road they will be from my own economic class, wealthy and most likely educated. We will likely get on.

It is sadly not so the further down the economic spectrum you go. When you jostle different ethnicities up against one another when there is precious little opportunity and social mobility possible people tend to retreat into their cultural in-groups and often conflict ensues.

There have been sociological papers done on the subject and namely to make multi-culturalism work (and I very much believe we should!) you need to tackle indigenous poverty first and not after. By divorcing the economic factors from the racial ones we have created a disenfranchised native population that we’re safely able to write off as “bigoted” (as Brown himself made the mistake of doing), and I believe in large part has resulted in the utter collapse of Labour in a lot of their heartlands, and they are being punished for it now.

No, I don’t dislike him but selling our gold reserves was a mistake in my view, thought it then and still think it now.

If Gordon was right to call the woman a bigot - why did he apologise?

Are you really asking this question. Surely it’s obvious why?

@Tealightsandd

There does exist sadly a minority of racists. And that is disgusting and unacceptable. But the vast majority of people raising concerns simply want the same as newly arrived immigrants. A decent quality of life.

Immigration isn't the problem. It is how it is managed.

I assume you mean that immigrants want a decent quality of life, and born nationals want a decent quality of life, rather than born nationals are somehow being denied a decent quality of life which immigrants are being granted?

The issue we have now, which we have to confront, is that a significant number immigrants are able to command decent salaries due to being highly skilled/trained/educated in their fields. It will be decades before we could have enough e.g. doctors to not need any immigration. Mrs Duffy can moan all she likes, we either accept immigrant doctors or vacant posts. There is not a UK national pool of trained but overlooked doctors.

Immigration is not the problem, but immigration is cited as a problem. We don't really need to manage immigration so much as manage how we a) make society more fair b) educate our future workforce c) ensure workers are in decent jobs, that pay enough to live well.

We can not do without immigration now, and immigrants who come here to work are not the problem. Anyone who blames immigrants or immigration for the issues which result from underinvestment in a) education/training and b) infrastructure is wrong, IMO.

Xenophobia leads many to blame immigrants for all sorts of things they have absolutely nothing to do with. I have no time for that at all. Conflating the decline/pressure in public services with immigration is just false. They are not responsible for UK political decisions.

A very minor flesh wound compared to most of the other damage he and Blair inflicted on the country

Any legitimate concern about immigration - or more accurately, the way it's been (mis)managed is instantly dismissed with accusations of xenophobia, etc.

This is untrue and usually spouted by people who are actually racist. I’ve seen dozens of debated, well thought out, well argued for and against immigration where nobody is called racist. The only ones I’ve seen where people bang on about being called racist is when they say things like “those immigrants come here and scrounge of benefits and steal our jobs” (as if both things can be true) then when called out whine that nobody can speak about immigration without being called racist.

@daimbarsatemydogsbone what is my bigoted assertion? That I don't like xenophobic people?

assume you mean that immigrants want a decent quality of life, and born nationals want a decent quality of life

I think my posts make that quite clear but apologies if not. Yes absolutely.

Not just want. Deserve.

@BoredZelda

If Gordon was right to call the woman a bigot - why did he apologise?

Are you really asking this question. Surely it’s obvious why?

If it was obvious I wouldn't be asking.

I like Gordon Brown on the whole.

There are two possible explanations as far as I can see -

1.He realised he was wrong to dismiss her as "that bigoted woman" so he went back to apologise and have proper discussion.

2.He cynically pretended he was sorry for th sake of appearances and in the hope of rescuing some votes - even though he really believed he was right and the woman was a bigot.

I want to believe it was number one because that would make the honest decent chap I generally think he is. If it was 2, he'd go way down in my estimation.