Mother or Birthing Parent

[thaigreen]

Which term do you prefer?

YABU Birthing Parent
YANBU Mother

The word mother has been removed from Scottish government maternity policies.

"Mother" does not appear, but neither does "birthing parent". The current version of the policy on the ScotGov website uses language which is so "inclusive" it includes people who aren't actually eligible for the entitlements described. It's unclear and potentially misleading.

Apparently (according to Stephen Nolan, anyway) ScotGov was coached by Stonewall to "remove gendered language" from the policies. Now we have "an employee having or adopting a child", "eligible employees having a baby", "employees", and "parents in a surrogacy arrangement".

From the "Maternity Leave" section: "Eligible employees having a baby can take up to 52 weeks' maternity leave" and "Employees must take at least 2 weeks after the birth (or 4 weeks if they're a factory worker)."

And in the "Paternity Leave" section: "Employees may be eligible for Statutory Paternity Leave if they and their partner are:
having a baby
adopting a child
having a baby through a surrogacy arrangement"

So if I'm pregnant, my partner and I EACH get to take BOTH Maternity and Paternity Leave because we're "having a baby"? Great! I'm Moving to Scotland....

Except ... Maternity Leave is for "eligible" employees, and in the Paternity section, "employees MAY be eligible". How on earth can we find out if we're eligible?

Well, how we find out is we click through the very helpful embedded links to ... the UK Government site. Where we discover that in order to claim "maternity" leave and/or pay, I must prove I'm pregnant. Non-pregnant partners of any sex, despite the fact that they're "having a baby", are not eligible.

Ah, well - on to "Paternity Leave", for which "Employees must be one of the following, the:
father
husband or partner of the mother (or adopter)
child’s adopter
intended parent (if they’re having a baby through a surrogacy arrangement)

OK, so: the pregnant person gets Maternity Leave, the partner gets Paternity Leave. Thank you, UK Government, for having an adult write your policy docs even though they sneaked some "gendered language" in there .

One thing still puzzles me, though: if we're supposed to remove "gendered" references and that includes "mother" and "father", then how is it OK to have "maternity" and "paternity" leave in the first place? Or... if "paternity" is now gender neutral (if I'm pregnant, my partner can claim it without having to be a man), then what is wrong with "father" ... or even "mother"?

Does it ever occur to you that you might be focussing on the wrong issue, or misunderstanding the implications?

No, not at all. I don't want to see females being erased from language used around birth, even if it doesn't bother you.

If you weren't so quick to presume that our experience of homophobia was 'strange' you might be better placed to acknowledge that it's real.

I 100% acknowledge that homophobia is real. I just think you're conflating this particular experience with the wider issues around language and I honestly don't see how erasing female language is supposed to address the homophobia you experienced. In fact, it'll do the exact opposite.

@EishetChayil

Mother.

A transman who gestates and births a child is obviously not dysphoric enough to "invalidated" or "erased" by hearing the word mother.

Exactly. How is being called a mother somehow offensive if you've chosen to get pregnant and give birth?

It is just so crazy that 50% of the population are having their identity as a woman erased in language so that a transman who chooses to carry a child for 9 months and give birth isn't "offended" by being referred to as a mother? It's delusional.

I always find it interesting that on the one hand we are told language really isn’t that big a deal & objecting to giving up words like mother is us being tiresome

Whilst simultaneously being told that not using the right pronouns or not saying trans women are women is literal violence and denying trans people their existence

It’s almost as if there’s one rule for one group and one for another isn’t it. Odd that

It's got nothing to do with anyone feeling traumatised by being called mother and everything to do with trying to impose gender ideology.

Mother!
I am a human woman who gave birth to a child.

The term 'birthing parent' is just some made up BS to yet again degrade women.

God forbid we can do something a male can't.

It is just so crazy that 50% of the population are having their identity as a woman erased in language so that a transman who chooses to carry a child for 9 months and give birth isn't "offended" by being referred to as a mother? It's delusional.

Sorry that ^ should have been in bold. It’s that in a nutshell basically.
(Thanks @ Piapiano)

NOT using ‘mother’ and saying ‘birthing partner’ is far MORE offensive to women. When will people WAKE UP?!

I'm a mother not a birthing parent

All it takes is a simple question from a midwife.... Do you prefer to be referred to as mother or would you prefer another term? .. put it on the paperwork and bobs your Aunty’s brother

If this had been mooted on Mumsnet 10 or 15 years ago, people would have been all over the idea of dismantling the gendered implications of the terminology in favour of a term that doesn't flag up gender. No one would have been pretending that a midwife with her hand up a vulva would be confused by the term 'birthing parent'.

Mother is not a gendered word, it is a sexed word and relates to females who either give birth or parent a child. People are rejecting terms which obscure sex and reinforce the concept of gender and more specifically give gender primacy over sex. Without acknowledgement of sex there are no sex based rights.

What now?

A transman who gestates and births a child is obviously not dysphoric enough to "invalidated" or "erased" by hearing the word mother.

I agree with this but I really think the biggest driving force here is uncoupling sex specific terminology from the word woman so that it's easier for anyone to claim to be a woman.

@Morporkia

All it takes is a simple question from a midwife.... Do you prefer to be referred to as mother or would you prefer another term? .. put it on the paperwork and bobs your Aunty’s brother

Except that nobody is asking women. They are just putting out articles, publicity material, health education material, legal papers, and radio interviews where they don't ask the VERY LARGE group of women they are talking to what they'd prefer to be called, they just assume they don't want to be called "mothers" because a teeny tiny percentage of mothers don't want to be called mothers.

drspouse I don't think they're assuming anything. They know full well that the vast majority of women want to keep the existing language, just like they know full full well that the vast majority of women want single sex toilets, changing rooms and other single sex spaces.
They simply don't care what women want. The only thing that matters to them is what they want.
It's becoming more and more obvious that this is about sexism and men's rights.

Some of you may find this piece in the Times today of interest - it's somewhat related to the subject of this thread. And as a bonus it's got the lyrics of a new Peggy Seeger song in the third section.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/failing-to-use-the-word-woman-puts-lives-at-risk-bz0s5wdl3?shareToken=7a91efe3951eb216b428e94806890d49

@EishetChayil

Mother.

A transman who gestates and births a child is obviously not dysphoric enough to "invalidated" or "erased" by hearing the word mother.

This is basically all there is to it. If you can give birth as a man you can cope with hearing the words mother or woman

And if you're trans, you'll know that you are a very small minority. It's not a personal attack on you to call everyone else what they are

Of course trans people are a small minority - that is why they deserve consideration and protection by wider society.

If being a minority was a reason to be allowed to exclude or discriminate then we could stop providing wheelchair ramps or accommodating people with mental health problems or a whole other raft of situations.

I am obviously not in favour of erasing the words "woman" or "mother" but I do think we should be clear that services include minority groups.

Transmen are not just a small minority in maternity wards. There is literally just one transman who has ever given birth in this country: Freddie McConnell. It is very bad practice to change all the documentation around pregnancy, offending millions of women, for a single exception.

If being a minority was a reason to be allowed to exclude or discriminate then we could stop providing wheelchair ramps or accommodating people with mental health problems or a whole other raft of situations.

No it's more like saying that everyone should have to use wheelchairs so that wheelchair users don't feel upset about being the only ones not able to walk.

Mother is the only word that works for me.

The term "birthing parent" only makes sense for the hours that the mother is giving birth. Then she is no longer birthing. If people have variant parental arrangements then maybe they can have forms that say Mother/Parent 1; Father/Parent 2. And leave a line for Parent(s) 3 etc. since now there are situations where three parents are legally parenting one child.

I am trying hard to get my head round the idea of a midwife who cannot tell which of two (other, if the midwife is female) women in a room is in labour.

I am not succeeding.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

I always find it interesting that on the one hand we are told language really isn’t that big a deal & objecting to giving up words like mother is us being tiresome

Whilst simultaneously being told that not using the right pronouns or not saying trans women are women is literal violence and denying trans people their existence

It’s almost as if there’s one rule for one group and one for another isn’t it. Odd that

Absolutely.

I don’t particularly have an issue with being called a birthing parent or whatever, but I do feel that there is a distinct double standard. I will happily and willingly use the name/pronoun/gender that a person chooses. I will also happily and willingly refer to a birthing parent in those terms if that is what they wish. I truly have no desire to cause hurt and distress to anyone. I simply can’t understand why I shouldn’t have the same right to be referred to as a mother when that is what I am and most importantly what I choose to be. Being a mother is more than just a word to me.

Ok, changed username.

And yes…

‘Absolutely.

I don’t particularly have an issue with being called a birthing parent or whatever, but I do feel that there is a distinct double standard. I will happily and willingly use the name/pronoun/gender that a person chooses. I will also happily and willingly refer to a birthing parent in those terms if that is what they wish. I truly have no desire to cause hurt and distress to anyone. I simply can’t understand why I shouldn’t have the same right to be referred to as a mother when that is what I am and most importantly what I choose to be. Being a mother is more than just a word to me.’