Mother or Birthing Parent

[thaigreen]

Which term do you prefer?

YABU Birthing Parent
YANBU Mother

Ffs what the actual hell is a 'birthing parent' and what happened to being a pregnant woman giving birth or being a mother??? I despair, I really do. I'm so glad I'm 50 and don't have much longer left on this bizarre planet.

Oh and what do we do about animals btw? Do we rule out ewe/ram or sow/boar? Cockrels and hens? Should they be known by their chosen pronouns? And what about dogs who mount other dogs? (Yes I know this is a show of dominance not mating.) Are those dogs labelled as gay or queer or bisexual or what??

Where will this end??

Sorry, of course, I did mean genetic but had a wine and couldn't think of the word!

'Birth mum' is a perfectly ok term, but so is 'birthing parent'.

When we were in the hospital, plenty of people didn't realise DP was a woman (she is, she's not trans, before anyone asks). There was no point saying 'she's the birth mum' as they just associated the phrase with adoption.

If the guidance for midwives etc. referred to 'the birthing partner' I'm sorry, but I can see it might help clue people in that the person giving birth may not look stereotypically feminine to you, but they still deserve care.

Btw, @HermioneKipper, I don't know which of the many trans men who've given birth you're talking about, but the trans men I know who have children seem pretty calm and down-to-earth about this. Certainly no interest in 'erasing women'.

I get why people worry about all sorts of issues around women-only spaces, really I do, but sometimes - and this is one of the times - I think mumsnet really shows itself up.

I'm sorry, but I can see it might help clue people in that the person giving birth may not look stereotypically feminine to you, but they still deserve care.

I don't get this POV at all.

Obviously everyone deserves care, without question.

But I don't see how decoupling the process of giving birth from being being biologically female helps what you're talking about.

Surely we'd be much better educating people that biological females don't fit a stereotypical image.

@TheKeatingFive

I'm sorry, but I can see it might help clue people in that the person giving birth may not look stereotypically feminine to you, but they still deserve care.

I don't get this POV at all.

Obviously everyone deserves care, without question.

But I don't see how decoupling the process of giving birth from being being biologically female helps what you're talking about.

Surely we'd be much better educating people that biological females don't fit a stereotypical image.

I don't want to decouple anything from biology.

But I'm biologically female too. Most lesbian couples do include two biological females, you know.

So that doesn't get us very far, does it?

I would just act daft and pretend I didn't understand. And then get them to explain the term in minute detail.

A possible alternative might have been to refer to your DP as the mother and you as the 'other mother', or non-birthing mother or suchlike. Obviously you know best what might have worked better for you and that might be inappropriate, but in general I'd have thought it would have been good for people to get their heads and tongues round the fact that stereotypical feminine appearance or not has nothing to do with whether a woman is a birth mother.

@ErrolTheDragon

A possible alternative might have been to refer to your DP as the mother and you as the 'other mother', or non-birthing mother or suchlike. Obviously you know best what might have worked better for you and that might be inappropriate, but in general I'd have thought it would have been good for people to get their heads and tongues round the fact that stereotypical feminine appearance or not has nothing to do with whether a woman is a birth mother.

No, I'm really sorry, but it didn't work.

It is incredibly frustrating, and honestly, even after having lived in this reality for several years now, I would be less sure of myself if I'd not talked to quite a lot of other lesbian couples who've also had issues.

The problem with using 'mum' (in any variant) when there are two women involved is that lots of people just see what they expect to see, and assume there must one one mum and one dad. If you say 'she's the birth mum' or 'I'm the other mum' it just confuses them.

I think changing the phrasing to 'birthing parent' in literature really could get across this, because it brings people up sharp in a way a phrase with 'mum' in won't.

Just to say - I think this bit is absolutely true: I'd have thought it would have been good for people to get their heads and tongues round the fact that stereotypical feminine appearance or not has nothing to do with whether a woman is a birth mother.

I mean, I would love that and surely so would all of us.

But it's not even just about appearance. I know several couples of women both of whom look equally 'feminine,' who had the same problem of rubbish healthcare because it was presumed if you've identified one 'mum' then the other warm body in the vicinity is either 'dad' or is some randomer who shouldn't be there.

I really do think it is something about the way language prompts us to follow expected patterns.

But if all women are referred to as birthing parent it just takes the place of mother/mum so how would that help lesbians? I really don't understand. Won't the more "feminine" looking just be presumed to be the birthing parent so nothing would change?

But I'm biologically female too. Most lesbian couples do include two biological females, you know.

Of course.

But you don't seem to be understanding the implications of consciously moving aware from female specific language when describing the person giving birth.

Away from

I think changing the phrasing to 'birthing parent' in literature really could get across this, because it brings people up sharp in a way a phrase with 'mum' in won't.

But there's nothing stopping you from using the phrase birthing parent if that makes you feel more comfortable. But why can't the rest of us use the words that make us feel most comfortable?

I can't help feeling "She's pregnant/giving birth and I am her partner" ought to get through to the meanest intelligence what the various relationships are? I mean, it isn't the doctors' or nurses' business what you call each other or what the child you plan to bring up together is going to call either of you, really.

If women are not allowed to attend anther woman while she is giving birth, where to "birthing partners" and doulas fit into the scheme of things? And if only a male partner is allowed to be present, what is a woman without a male partner to do about not being left alone while she is in early labour waiting to give birth?

@SarahAndQuack just wanted to say thank you for your thoughtful and gracious contribution to this thread.

@Piapiano

But if all women are referred to as birthing parent it just takes the place of mother/mum so how would that help lesbians? I really don't understand. Won't the more "feminine" looking just be presumed to be the birthing parent so nothing would change?

I think the suggestion isn't referring to all women as birthing parent, is it? It's referring to the one who is giving birth.

I know in theory you might get people still assuming the more 'feminine' person was the birthing parent, but what I'm saying is, I think changing the language would help shift attitudes. That's my sense.

@TheKeatingFive

But I'm biologically female too. Most lesbian couples do include two biological females, you know.

Of course.

But you don't seem to be understanding the implications of consciously moving aware from female specific language when describing the person giving birth.

I think I do understand, TBH. I just don't agree with you.

But there's nothing stopping you from using the phrase birthing parent if that makes you feel more comfortable. But why can't the rest of us use the words that make us feel most comfortable?

This is a really good point. As I mentioned in a previous post, the Scottish Government has erased the word mother from their maternity policies due to lobbying by Stonewall. Why erase mother and replace it with birthing parent? Why not use both so either phrase can be used depending on people's preference? I want to be referred to as a mother. If someone else wants to be referred to as a birthing parent, then they should go for it. But to just replace an established word, with no consultation with those who are affected by the change in language, is bizarre. Has 'nothing about us, without us' just been dropped as a concept'?

@azimuth299

I think changing the phrasing to 'birthing parent' in literature really could get across this, because it brings people up sharp in a way a phrase with 'mum' in won't.

But there's nothing stopping you from using the phrase birthing parent if that makes you feel more comfortable. But why can't the rest of us use the words that make us feel most comfortable?

But I'm talking about the literature, not my usage.

If the literature talks about 'birthing parents' and you want to say 'mother,' I think you should absolutely be entitled to. I think others agree too?

I don't think anyone should mind what language an individual using a service uses. But that's different from official language IMO.

[quote peachgreen]@SarahAndQuack just wanted to say thank you for your thoughtful and gracious contribution to this thread.[/quote]
That's really nice of you to say, thanks.

But I'm talking about the literature, not my usage.

If the literature talks about 'birthing parents' and you want to say 'mother,' I think you should absolutely be entitled to. I think others agree too?

I don't think anyone should mind what language an individual using a service uses. But that's different from official language IMO.

But as many examples on this thread show, "birthing parent" does not accurately cover all situations either. It also offends many women as it is dehumanising. It is confusing, inaccurate, offensive and appears to be part of the drive to erase the language that women use to describe themselves and their unique issues. So why change it to such a problematic phrase without any consultation?

It's not confusing or inaccurate. Quite the opposite. It makes it clear that it is referring to the person giving birth.

Whether it's offensive is subjective.

Mother, of course.

Are we going to have to rename this site as Birthingparentsnet.com?

Fucking ridiculous. I hope the Scot gov have replaced every mention of father with non-birthing parent.

Thank you OP for conducting this important research! I’d love to see it done out with MN too and am confident the proportions would be similar. The term mother is very important to me. I’d be fine with policies talking about ‘mothers and birthing parents’, and HCPs asking parents how they wish to be referred to. But the idea that no women care about this is farcical!

@azimuth299

But I'm talking about the literature, not my usage.

If the literature talks about 'birthing parents' and you want to say 'mother,' I think you should absolutely be entitled to. I think others agree too?

I don't think anyone should mind what language an individual using a service uses. But that's different from official language IMO.

But as many examples on this thread show, "birthing parent" does not accurately cover all situations either. It also offends many women as it is dehumanising. It is confusing, inaccurate, offensive and appears to be part of the drive to erase the language that women use to describe themselves and their unique issues. So why change it to such a problematic phrase without any consultation?

Oh, sure, it's not a perfect solution. I don't, as I've said, really feel it is part of a drive to erase the language women use. And I can't see how this is 'without consultation'.