Mother or Birthing Parent

[thaigreen]

Which term do you prefer?

YABU Birthing Parent
YANBU Mother

@RuggerHug

Asking a well established echo chamber known for having a lot of extreme opinions is not verified polling. But you knew that.

Saying a woman is a woman and a man is a man is now considered "extreme"?!?!

@poetnojo yep. The posters on another, intensively monitored and moderated board on MNHQ have repeatedly been told that they are 'transphobic' for holding the 'extreme' view that human beings cannot change sex. Maya Forstater had to go through an employment tribunal after being forced out of employment for stating that there are only two sexes, though fortunately the judge ruled that such statements are 'worthy of respect in a democratic society'. Elected representatives will not openly state that there are two sexes when asked by their constituents.

These are all apparently 'extreme' views.

And just to address the tiresome, oft repeated 'echo chamber' trope, this is often repeated as fact by posters used to Twittter, where you can block, 'only mentioned' or simply delete comments you disagree with. On Mumsnet, you can't edit comments, can't delete comments. You actually have to stand by what you've said and have it commented upon. That's why there are so often 'plopper' posters on this topic.

@MurielSpriggs

I'm assuming that medical professionals would only use the term for mothers who were uncomfortable with being called mothers, ie almost only in the case of transmen?

I think your assumption may be flawed. The complaint as I read it was that misguided medical professionals are using "birthing parent" instead of "mother" in all the literature; the vast majority of people giving birth are not transmen who have stopped taking the hormones in order to be able to become pregnant.

(Isn't taking the hormones part and parcel of living as a man anyway?)

In order to pander to the feelings of a vanishingly small proportion of a large part of the population, they are being stupid.

I have both my legs. A few people have one, or none. That people who do not have two legs exist does not stop the human species as a whole being classified as "biped".

Now, I challenge you, come up with a word meaning "with no, one, two or three legs" which is still of any particular use when referring to a biped?

@MurielSpriggs

I'm assuming that medical professionals would only use the term for mothers who were uncomfortable with being called mothers, ie almost only in the case of transmen?

You would be wrong

www.newsweek.com/biden-admin-replaces-mothers-birthing-people-maternal-health-guidance-1598343

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0431a0e6-e890-11eb-baaa-861dba20d87a?shareToken=e5fd6416bbe99226375a1db71d497b5a

This is from the home page of Birthright - a charity which campaigns for better childbirth.

They have replaced the word women with people. This is a massive issue because if we cannot talk about our rights, we cannot defend them. Pregnancy and maternity are specifically protected under law as impacting only women. The moment we wipe away words that make it clear that only women are impacted by birth and breastfeeding, we risk eroding our rights.

How do you have maternal/maternity services without the maters? The word maternal means "of mothers", not "of birthing people". These language-vandals need to try harder.

www.etymonline.com/word/maternal
www.etymonline.com/word/maternity

A transman giving birth is biologically female and legally a mother. Why are we having to overhaul language norma to facilitate a delusion that a male body can give birth? That is biologically impossible and everyone knows it.

They can get their child to call them whatever they like: mum, mam, mom, mommy, mama, Kitten, Mrs Kong... like we all do. No one is making their child call them ‘mummy’, so why is there a move to ‘erase’ mother’s?

I found this blog post by the child of an older trans parent on the subject of mothers very thought provoking childrenoftransitioners.org/2019/08/29/the-invisible-mother/

I’d correct anyone who tried to call me a birthing parent or a menstruator or a cervix owner.

I am an adult human female - a woman. I gave birth to my children and I am their mother. I have a mother.

Maternity/ mother are important words in a legal sense as well as ones which are understood around the whole world in most of the major languages. Losing those words bit by bit from common usage or government policies or government documents will have an enormous impact - and that impact will be absorbed by women, to our detriment.

I am a woman and a mother, hear me roar!

@Justreadingtheforum3

If a person born as a woman but then lives as a man has a baby with their partner then they'll want be called birthing parent.

Especially if his partner is a woman. The woman in that scenario would be mom. The birthday parent would be dad.

Trans men are really marginalised.

But someone having a baby isnt really living as a man are they because, well, you know, sorry for staying the bleeding obvious, but men don’t/can’t get pregnant and give birth.

@SorryAuntLydia

Why can’t it just be mother/birthing parent?

Because we don’t need a new descriptor; mother works just fine.

This mangling of the English language is a really tiresome trend. Anyway I must go, my barking domesticated companion mammal needs to utilise his moving implements.

No, it doesn't. I'm sorry. It may work beautifully for some heterosexual women. But if your main complaint is that you find different language 'tiresome,' well ... grow up.

You can cope with finding language 'tiresome'.

@TheKeatingFive

Eg those who are ‘non-binary’, those in same sex relationships - there at two ‘mothers’ so it’s a way of talking about the one who is giving birth. It’s not taking away the word ‘mother’ but adding an extra term in for situations that don’t fit the common narrative.

There's no need for an extra term.

There is absolutely no situation where 'birth mother' doesn't clarify immediately

The more complex implications of these situations would be much better and genuinely served by better education around women not always acting/looking in stereotypically 'female' ways. I am 100% behind this. Deciding we need an alternative term for mother totally flies in the face of this acceptance.

Why can’t we have a both/and situation?

Because the only reason we'd need to do this is if we were trying to deny basic biological fact.

This just isn't true.

I have watched my partner give birth, and no, the term 'birth mother' didn't clarify anything.

I am absolutely behind the idea we should educate people about the idea that women don't always look 'feminine'.

But if you have two women who look equally feminine, and they're still hitting problems because midwives have been primed to look for 'the mother' or 'the birth mothe,' then clearly, educating people about how 'feminine' women might look isn't enough.

Referring to 'the birthing partner' is a sensible, practical, helpful option. It primes midwives and healthcare professionals to stop thinking in gendered terms, which is helpful given that gender is a construct.

If this had been mooted on Mumsnet 10 or 15 years ago, people would have been all over the idea of dismantling the gendered implications of the terminology in favour of a term that doesn't flag up gender. No one would have been pretending that a midwife with her hand up a vulva would be confused by the term 'birthing parent'.

SarahAndQuack
No one would have been pretending that a midwife with her hand up a vulva would be confused by the term 'birthing parent'.

Or confused as to who was giving birth!

If you have two women, one obviously very pregnant and the other not, it really ought not to be impossible to work out which is the mother and which the mother's partner.

I have watched my partner give birth, and no, the term 'birth mother' didn't clarify anything.

Honestly, neither would birthing partner and all that would have been achieved was further reinforcement of the idea that females act/look a certain way.

There must have been something pretty strange about your midwife that she didn't notice which of you was pregnant. Clearly further education around how to approach lesbian couples when one's in childbirth is needed.

But you are focusing on the wrong issue here. And the scary thing is you don't seem to understand the implications of it.

Mother.

A transman who gestates and births a child is obviously not dysphoric enough to "invalidated" or "erased" by hearing the word mother.

(How do you put a hand up a vulva? It's a piece of skin? I think you mean vagina)

I don't really understand how the term "birthing parent" would help in that circumstance.

Many, many women bring in another woman as a birthing partner. Sometimes a life partner, sometimes another relative or friend.

I don't see how there could be anything beyond a brief moment of confusion, easily corrected, as to which woman is heavily pregnant and labouring and which woman is in a supportive role.

And how would changing mother to birthing parent help?

God I hope that any midwife would know which woman in front of her was the one about to give birth, even without her hand up a vagina. Maybe we should all ask for a label to be put round our necks, just in case they get it wrong.

Maybe we should all ask for a label to be put round our necks, just in case they get it wrong.

Surely not needed as the woman giving birth would be the woman named in the notes. If a midwife can’t distinguish which of 2 women is about to give birth, the clarifying the name would clear up the confusion.

@EishetChayil

(How do you put a hand up a vulva? It's a piece of skin? I think you mean vagina)

A vulva refers to a woman's external genitals, including the lips of the labia. Often people use 'vagina' as a synonym, but actually, the vagina is the internal passage. A midwife or other health professional would put their hand through the vulva before entering the vagina.

If you are thinking of a piece of skin, I'm not sure what you're meaning? Neither the vulva nor the vagina is a piece of skin.

@TheKeatingFive

I have watched my partner give birth, and no, the term 'birth mother' didn't clarify anything.

Honestly, neither would birthing partner and all that would have been achieved was further reinforcement of the idea that females act/look a certain way.

There must have been something pretty strange about your midwife that she didn't notice which of you was pregnant. Clearly further education around how to approach lesbian couples when one's in childbirth is needed.

But you are focusing on the wrong issue here. And the scary thing is you don't seem to understand the implications of it.

There were several midwives, and multiple medical professionals involved - it was a very long labour. And, as I said, I also know of other lesbian couples who had similar experiences.

Perhaps, instead of claiming that our midwife was 'strange', you should believe us?

Does it ever occur to you that you might be focussing on the wrong issue, or misunderstanding the implications? If you weren't so quick to presume that our experience of homophobia was 'strange' you might be better placed to acknowledge that it's real.

You can cope with finding language 'tiresome'.

@SarahAndQuack if you are a MN regular you will be aware of the many many mothers who have suffered birth injuries and trauma. You will be aware of the many many women who succeeded in becoming mothers against difficult odds, struggling for years, investing money and emotional energy to become mothers. You will be aware of the many many women desperate to become mothers. And all of us have the right to be called that.

Just because one tired overworked midwife momentarily assumed you were mum to be, you want all of us to put aside our wishes, our needs, our rights and the legal framework of maternity rights, in order to make you feel a bit less sad. And your suggested solution won’t even solve your issue, just confuse the staff more. Sorry, I’m afraid I do find that tiresome.