Sexual contact when asleep - abusive?

[Level75]

Just listened to an interesting item on Woman's Hour about people initiating sexual contact with their partner when their partner is asleep. The interviewee said all contact in this manner is without consent and therefore technically sexual assault. AIBU in agreeing with her? Loads of people contacted the program to say it wasn't an issue and some even gave blanket consent for their partner to have sex with them whilst asleep. I just thought that was a bit grim.

That’s it! I’ve had enough of the world today. I’m going back under my rock now.

I don't know, it depends on the couple. My partner works very late and if we didn't 'wake eachother up' we would never get chance to do it. I would be upset if I said I was too tired and he didn't stop. I think its a personal decision and somebody labelling me and my partner sexual assulters for our how we initiate our love making is a bit grim in itself.

Grim. Of course it’s assault. I’m sure there must be some couples who have an agreement where it’s okay but I would feel so wrong initiating sexual contact with an unconscious person, I just couldn’t do it:

I assume women who give such blanket consent actually hate sex with their partners and can't face it awake, sober etc.

If it happens when you're asleep/drunk/stoned, then it's easier to dissociate from it and pretend it's not happening.

It sounds to me like a nightmarish kind of sex life to have.

Depends exactly what is meant by sexual contact. I don't mind being kissed awake (provided we don't have an early start next day). I always get confused by this - do people not wake up? I don't understand why someone would want to have sex with a sleeping person.

I think yabu. Its up to each couple to decide between them. We shouldnt be telling anyone 'you can't allow someone to do this'
I think it very much CAN be sexual assault even if you are in a long term relationship. If someone is unhappy with it then yes its assault.
But I think it is something you can give consent for if you wish because some people love sleepy morning sex (I personally hate it but each to their own)
I think if your partner is asleep that's very different and much more of a grey area than being unconscious because they are drunk or something... someone who is just asleep will definitely wake up and also its sometimes not clear when people are asleep or awake.. I can have whole conversations with my husband when he's asleep! To say its always definitely sexual assault when someone has sex with someone else when they were sleeping isnt right. It completely depends on the context and the people involved and how they feel about it imo

It’s really difficult as my ex use to do this to me all the time I only realised it was wrong from MN. Seems very normal/common irl.

initiating sexual contact with their partner when their partner is asleep
Initiating I would take as wake up the person for it. Big difference to just doing it to a sleeping person btw.

Agree with pp. Very much depends on a couple either way.

Had this discussion with DH before. He says he wouldn’t mind me doing it at all but I said it’s a form of sexual assault because a sleeping person cannot consent.

Tricky one. My ex would often initiate sex when I was asleep - sometimes I would be into it, sometimes not. But after a not insignificant number of years, it turned out he thought I was instigating it and waking him up.

I don't think I can call it abuse when he doesn't even know he's doing it!

I think it's mostly down to the couple. If they have an agreement to say it's fine, then it's fine. If one person doesn't want it, then it's not.

But cases like mine muddy the water somewhat.

Yes, I don't think most people would stay asleep while someone had sex with them, I assume it's about waking people up by touching them, but the key concept is whether you consent to being woken up in a sexual manner by your partner. Pre-DD, we did this sometimes and we both enjoyed it, DH loved being woken up in that way particularly, but now I wouldn't because I need my sleep now!

But it absolutely can be abuse.

Once again it is too generic. There is a world of difference between a kiss on the back of the neck or stroking the arm to gently arouse someone awake ^who you know would be receptive or able to say not tonight" and starting/having full sex whilst the other person is unconscious.

Also one couple's threshold may be very different from anothers.

It depends what was meant by “initiating”, surely? Being startled awake because your partner has already climbed on you and inserted his penis = unacceptable. Being awoken by your partner kissing and nuzzling you = I’ve generally assumed this is normal for most couples and is one of my favourite ways to wake up.

@WhiskyXray

I assume women who give such blanket consent actually hate sex with their partners and can't face it awake, sober etc.

If it happens when you're asleep/drunk/stoned, then it's easier to dissociate from it and pretend it's not happening.

It sounds to me like a nightmarish kind of sex life to have.

I think I understand this differently to you.

'initiating sexual contact while asleep' isn't the same as 'having sex with someone that's asleep'.

The interviewee said all contact in this manner is without consent and therefore technically sexual assault. AIBU in agreeing with her?

Loads of people contacted the program to say it wasn't an issue and some even gave blanket consent for their partner to have sex with them whilst asleep.

Blanket consent is consent, so these people are speaking up about something that doesn't impact them. But I also understand how the interviewee's words, the way you've stated them, imply that there's something wrong with people who consent to do this. That isn't fair or true.

I think its key to discuss it between you as well..
I would say its always sexual assault if your partner never even asked you and also took pains not to wake you as in, he's just had sex with you whilst you were completely unconscious the entire time without ever asking you if he could and hoping you didn't wake... that is grim

But like I said some people like to initiate sex when they are both half asleep. And if both partners are fine with that I dont view it as assault.
Also if you have someones prior permission I dont view it as assault.

I'm so confused with this guys

Also - what if someone says - I DONT THINK IT S A GOOD TIME

husband goes ahead

Wife feels too scared to speak up

What is that??

😢😢😢😢

I think it very much depends on the couple. DP and I have discussed it, and agreed that we both have given total consent for being woken up in a sexual manner, if one person wants to initiate sex, having come to bed later etc.

Clearly in our agreement, having sex with a completely comatose person would be strange/wrong. It would also be wrong to continue if the person woken up didn’t want to. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with agreeing that it’s ok to initiate sex, and see if the other is up for it.

It’s all about boundaries and consent. Respecting boundaries, with consent, sexual touching is fine. Pushing boundaries, making people uncomfortable clearly not fine.

About a year before I split with my ex, he started waking me up for sex by touching & fondeling. I'm not a good sleeper & once I'm awake I can't get back to sleep. I asked him not to do it. But Every so often he would try it. It made me feel disgusting & we talked about it again & he said he understood. He tried a few weeks later but this time got angry when I brushed his hands away & stormed out the room and I ended up with the silent treatment for a few days. I was then told in a blazing argument after the silence I was masterbateing so I must have been up for it. Long story short a few weeks later the police removed him from my flat & he was charged with domestic assault. Over a year later I'm on strong antidepressants & getting counselling and therapy due to his years of domestic abuse which could have led to full on sexual abuse if I hadn't left.
Waking someone up for sex is not consensual.

I think it depends. My husband sometimes starts touching me when I’m asleep (stroking my back or kissing me). If I say ‘get off let me sleep!’ He stops immediately, if I am happy to get involved then I do. He never forces the issue, stops if I ask him to etc.

Oh - I just want to clarify, when I said sometimes I was into it, sometimes not - if I wasn't into it, we both just went back to sleep.

If he had persisted, that would have been assault. But he never did.

What is that??
Sounds like an abusive relationship that you don't want to be in. Being scared of your partner is awful.

I'm a sleepy morning sex person and my ex husband used to wake me up sometimes in the morning with kisses and strokes and I would like it. If I didn't I would have told him and he wouldn't have done it/stopped.

If someone has said they don't like it and the other person does it anyway then that's not ok though.

Really depends.

DH has given blanket permission (and repeats this blanket permission periodically), but what usually happens is he's waking up by the time it gets beyond cuddling, kissing, stroking. If he was drunk or sleeping and unresponsive to the initial stages, then I would stop there (despite permission).

If there is no blanket permission in place, then it's absolutely assault.

If there's blanket permission in place but you've fallen out, then I'd say assault too because I would assume the consent is conditional - that if it's something the other person probably wouldn't consent to at that time if they were awake, then it's out of bounds. So that would include going through a bad patch/a fight/other person being particularly tired, or ill.

Personally, even with blanket consent, I wouldn't be willing to do this with someone who wasn't responding at all, but that may be different for someone else, and requires detailed negotiation.

I, OTOH, have not given blanket permission to DH for the other way round, and that's fine.

I think the which all tees seem to have been shown is great and covers sex with someone who is sleeping!