Sexual contact when asleep - abusive?

[Level75]

Just listened to an interesting item on Woman's Hour about people initiating sexual contact with their partner when their partner is asleep. The interviewee said all contact in this manner is without consent and therefore technically sexual assault. AIBU in agreeing with her? Loads of people contacted the program to say it wasn't an issue and some even gave blanket consent for their partner to have sex with them whilst asleep. I just thought that was a bit grim.

@WhiskyXray
I thought so

Police said no I'm not correct
That I should have said something again during intercourse !!

Was too afraid to
I initially didn't give consent

@Runciblespoonandaring

*Also - what if someone says - I DONT THINK IT S A GOOD TIME husband goes ahead Wife feels too scared to speak up What is that??*

Assuming that this is all one event, where the wife isn't up for it and says so, the husband goes ahead, and the wife is too scared to speak up - well that's rape I'm afraid.

Even if you had given blanket consent to let him have sex whilst you sleep, you said it was not the right time on that occasion, therefore the blanket consent doesn't apply that day. I'm not sure legally how that would stand up, but no reasonable person would ignore what you said and continue.

Assuming you have not given blanket consent, then this is rape clear and simple. It doesn't matter that you were subsequently too scared to speak up. You did not consent in any way to this. Being too scared to speak/move away is the freeze response. When scared people fight / flee / freeze, and all are valid responses. Sometimes your brain decides that the best way to survive this is to freeze. And freezing absolutely does not imply consent.

This is why the threshold for consent should not be a coerced 'yes', a nagged 'yes', or a lack of response. The lack of response, lack of 'no' or fight can be because the person is too scared to do anything but stay still. The threshold for consent should be enthusiastic consent.

Thanks

Well according to the met it's not !!!!!!!

Any wonder women don't report these things

@ConstanceGracy

Actually it was 3 times, one has literally just slammed back into my memory 😞

I completely get this. I too brushed off occasions when it happened, and afterwards did a..............hang on a minute.

I think there is quite a big difference between being kissed awake on or around the time you would wake anyway which may or may not lead on to having sex. I woke up to my tampon being removed, and worse, which is absolutely not the in same category.

So I don't think there is a yes or no reply to this. It depends on a few different factors.

As a general rule of thumb, yes it absolutely would be assault. However some couples make have boundaries they've discussed in which consent is fully given in these instances, though it's difficult to really state that it wouldn't be, because consent can be revoked at anytime and how can one revoke consent when sleeping.

It doesn't cover whether someone has said they are happy to be woken up with a cup of tea though. And some people are.

@FluffyBooBoo, but again there is a big difference in waking someone up with a cup of tea (which they are entitled to accept or reject at will) and pouring the tea into their mouth while they are still asleep.

Yes the interviewee's position was that any sexual contact with a sleeping person, ever, is sexual abuse. She deliberately makes no distinction between (A) waking a sexual partner in a sexual way, to see if they want sex on that occasion, and (B) penetrating someone who’s unconscious.

Unfortunately, the difference between A and B includes the really crucial part: consent! Calling scenario A rape, provides rape apologists with evidence that some people would cry “rape” at the drop of a hat, and so it dangerously undermines the valid complaint of anyone who has been abused in their sleep.

I think it was a really poor decision of WH to let this interviewee her damaging argument without closer consideration. I think that most people are happy with scenario A. I wonder if most of the "blanket approvals" are referring to that, rather than to Scenario B.

My abusive ex would get thrills doing this to me, I ended up wearing tucked in clothing, leggings and inaccessible trousers etc towards the end because I'd wake up with him assaulting me.
One of his many threats was to 'kill me then have sex/sodomize my body', absolute monster as he is.

@CaveMum

It doesn't cover whether someone has said they are happy to be woken up with a cup of tea though. And some people are.

@FluffyBooBoo, but again there is a big difference in waking someone up with a cup of tea (which they are entitled to accept or reject at will) and pouring the tea into their mouth while they are still asleep.

I haven't said otherwise. And I believe that's covered in the video.

[quote Queenie6655]@WhiskyXray
I thought so

Police said no I'm not correct
That I should have said something again during intercourse !!

Was too afraid to
I initially didn't give consent [/quote]
I'm very sorry this happened to you and that your courage in reporting it was met with such a woeful, and wrong, police response.

It is unsurprising, however.

DH likes it when I initiate sex in the middle of the night I will touch him and if if doesn't want it then it ends there but he is always happy about it tbh and has said many times he wants me to do it whenever I feel like it

@Moneysavvymam

I don't know, it depends on the couple. My partner works very late and if we didn't 'wake eachother up' we would never get chance to do it. I would be upset if I said I was too tired and he didn't stop. I think its a personal decision and somebody labelling me and my partner sexual assulters for our how we initiate our love making is a bit grim in itself.

I completely understand the premise of the programme (consent is not possible to give whilst not awake!) I have to say that your perspective is also valid. The idea that one person - before they go to sleep - cannot consent to being woken up by intimate touching seems to me to be ludicrous.

I’m really in two minds on this one. I can see both sides of this. Personally I’m happy to be woken by a kiss or a gentle touch. I’m not that heavy a sleeper! In the unlikely event that I stayed asleep I’d find it a bit creepy to say the least if a partner continued beyond that stage.

but again there is a big difference in waking someone up with a cup of tea (which they are entitled to accept or reject at will) and pouring the tea into their mouth while they are still asleep.

^^this is a good way of looking at it!

Unless they’ve specifically said “I love tea poured into my mouth whilst asleep, please go for it”

@WhiskyXray unsurprising

Why should they care!!!

@MadsMikkelsensWaterBottle

My abusive ex would get thrills doing this to me, I ended up wearing tucked in clothing, leggings and inaccessible trousers etc towards the end because I'd wake up with him assaulting me. One of his many threats was to 'kill me then have sex/sodomize my body', absolute monster as he is.

I'm so so sorry 😞

no he didn't

Yes, he did. I was there and I don't remember you being part of that conversation. But I knew someone would think that they knew what went on better than me.

You, however, are free to think what you like.

The problem with blanket consent, is you cannot withdraw it if you don't wake up. And the person having sex acts performed on them should always have the ability to withdraw consent.

I apologise if this is too much information, but a couple of times now, I've woken my partner up by going down on her.

Yes, she enjoyed it, but because she was asleep, I didn't actually ask for consent. I just guessed that she would enjoy it.

Was this abuse?

We have blanket consent but the idea of the sexual contact is to wake the other person to join in. The assumptions is that the other person would be keen to join in. I don't consider it assault but it is something we have specifically discussed. It wouldn't be ok for me if it hadn't been discussed. We have never got to penetration without the other person being fully awake and participating. I (and he) would not feel at all uncomfortable to wake up and say no we don't fancy it. The other person wouldn't be at all put out at being rejected and we'd just have a quick cuddle instead.

Don’t be ridiculous. In a loving, trusting committed relationship this is just exciting and passionate.

I love it when DH wakes me up this way and I do it to him too. What has the world come to 😂

@seaandsandcastles

Don’t be ridiculous. In a loving, trusting committed relationship this is just exciting and passionate.

I love it when DH wakes me up this way and I do it to him too. What has the world come to 😂

Yes - exactly this! But it seems most of the posters here are in relationships of convenience where bills, chores and children are the priority and everything else is a once annual birthday treat (as long as there is recorded written consent of course).

@TheEponymousGrub

*Yes the interviewee's position was that any sexual contact with a sleeping person, ever, is sexual abuse. She deliberately makes no distinction between (A) waking a sexual partner in a sexual way, to see if they want sex on that occasion, and (B) penetrating someone who’s unconscious.

Unfortunately, the difference between A and B includes the really crucial part: consent! Calling scenario A rape, provides rape apologists with evidence that some people would cry “rape” at the drop of a hat, and so it dangerously undermines the valid complaint of anyone who has been abused in their sleep.

I think it was a really poor decision of WH to let this interviewee her damaging argument without closer consideration. I think that most people are happy with scenario A. I wonder if most of the "blanket approvals" are referring to that, rather than to Scenario B.*

Totally agree. As for @ftw163532 I absolutely understand that a person can be in an abusive relationship without fully realising it. That’s why I said on the whole it is unreasonable and patronising to tell someone they have been assaulted if they don’t think they have.

I am largely referring to scenario A (woken up with sexual touching) above, because I find it difficult to imagine scenario B (woken up with PIV), mostly because I find it difficult to marine that happening.

What I don’t find it difficult to imagine is that some - possibly even most - women would find A unacceptable. If that was all the interviewee was talking about, I probably would be in broad agreement.

I also don’t find it difficult to imagine that some - possibly many - women would find B absolutely okay, especially if prior, awake permission had been given.

In that case it is outrageous for some other person to insist that she has been assaulted (sub text: she is too oppressed or too stupid to understand that she is in an abusive relationship)

@FaceForRadio1973 in my view, yes.

She might consent when she wakes up but I don't see how she can consent to this when asleep.

Going down on someone is, to me, a step beyond kissing/stroking in the hope they'll wake up and want sex (the latter being less problematic in many people's eyes).

Legally, these are the points which have to be proven for sexual assault by touching - I would imagine blanket consent for people who enjoy this covers the "reasonably believes" point.

Personally, I don't think one person can just decide what is and isn't assault when everyone will have their own boundaries in their relationship.

@ComtesseDeSpair

It depends what was meant by “initiating”, surely? Being startled awake because your partner has already climbed on you and inserted his penis = unacceptable. Being awoken by your partner kissing and nuzzling you = I’ve generally assumed this is normal for most couples and is one of my favourite ways to wake up.

Couldn't agree more.