Low risk women/better birth facilities - unfair?

[Glassofshloer]

When DD was a baby we attended a breastfeeding appointment at my local stand-alone birth centre and WOW! To say it was gorgeous is an understatement - double bed, huge whirlpool bath thing, fairy lights and bouncy balls in every room. Looked like the Ritz compared to the tiny, dimly lit room on the CDU where I gave birth. Just a bed and some wall stickers of flowers

AIBU to think this is unfair on high risk/Consultant led women? And that we all deserve equal facilities, high risk or not? Fully prepared to be told IABU!

No 🙄

Ok let’s ask a different question, do you think it is right and fair that facilities and care are a lottery? Put aside the ‘life is unfair’ stuff for a moment, do you understand why we are discussing this?

@Glassofshloer

No 🙄

Ok let’s ask a different question, do you think it is right and fair that facilities and care are a lottery? Put aside the ‘life is unfair’ stuff for a moment, do you understand why we are discussing this?

Of course I don’t think it’s right and fair but, while discussing it’s interesting, nothing’s going to change it. The reality is that the only way to guarantee any standard of care other than the most basic is to pay for it.

@Blossomtoes

But we’re not trying to ‘change’ it we are literally just discussing it.

And we do bloody pay for it! It’s just our money goes towards giving some women good facilities but not others. Literally the tax i pay went towards accommodating women in photo 1 I posted, yet I had to give birth in a room like photo 2.

nothing’s going to change it

That’s a really strange attitude. Of course it could be changed if there was willing to do so.

You are able to choose which hospital though which is good. Not an option for everyone due to travel etc..... I travelled quite a long way to get what I believed was the best hospital. Bit of a risk but panned out fine. Especially good due to covid moving appointments to the phone. Also, I believe you can use your GP for antenatal appointments then go to the hospital just for the birth.

I genuinely think some women don’t want it to be changed, Biz. Mainly ones that had lovely experiences, of course

I think some women don't believe that women deserve better. I believe that some women think you're meant to suffer. Female version of machismo.

@Bizawit

nothing’s going to change it

That’s a really strange attitude. Of course it could be changed if there was willing to do so.

How are you going to make a huge health system uniform? Just the variance in the estate in which healthcare is provided is a major obstacle - some buildings are purpose built while others are literally up to 100 years old. And it would cost an absolute fortune even if it was possible.

What happens to all the other NHS services if you pour all the money into maternity care? There are already people having chemotherapy and dialysis in buildings that aren’t fit for purpose.

@Glassofshloer

I genuinely think some women don’t want it to be changed, Biz. Mainly ones that had lovely experiences, of course

I want it to change, but the change I desire is better staffing ratios, more person centred care, listening to the mother, more choice and freedom for method of birth. The facilities themselves don't bother me as long as they're clean, functional and can handle an emergency - I don't think MLU are appropriate at all.

@Blossomtoes the whole point is that it is supposed to be uniform - that’s what NICE etc are for, because we are supposed to receive an equal standard of care no matter where we live. Of course that isn’t the reality, but I don’t understand why the notion of trying to make it happen (or even wanting it to) seems to annoy you so much?

What happens to all the other NHS services if you pour all the money into maternity care?

All the money 🙄 I think you’ve fallen for the Tory spin that we’re all fighting for the last tenner, and that we should all be gallant and sacrifice our own needs so in the end nobody has it

@Glassofshloer, my annoyance is at the level of naivety and lack of realism on this thread. Of course I haven’t fallen for Tory spin and I’m quite insulted that you think I’m stupid enough to do so.

NICE exists to ensure a standard for care and treatment are met. That doesn’t include the kind of accommodation you get - it can’t for the reason I gave you above.

[quote Blossomtoes]@Glassofshloer, my annoyance is at the level of naivety and lack of realism on this thread. Of course I haven’t fallen for Tory spin and I’m quite insulted that you think I’m stupid enough to do so.

NICE exists to ensure a standard for care and treatment are met. That doesn’t include the kind of accommodation you get - it can’t for the reason I gave you above.[/quote]
Why is it naive? You keep saying these things but can’t really explain why.

It is not naive nor is it unrealistic to create better birth experiences for normal to high risk mothers.

It is disingenuous to pretend it is a zero-sum game, and it is also disingenuous to pretend that what the women on this thread are advocating for are some fairly lights and a birthing pool.

I have explained. Are you even bothering to read what I wrote?

It is not naive nor is it unrealistic to create better birth experiences for normal to high risk mothers

Nobody said it was.

It is disingenuous to pretend it is a zero-sum game, and it is also disingenuous to pretend that what the women on this thread are advocating for are some fairly lights and a birthing pool

That’s literally what the OP said. 🙄

Yes @Blossomtoes but you haven’t explained why we have, for example, millions to Chuck away on useless test & trace/HS2 etc but apparently it’s unreasonable to expect equal NHS care to other women because there’s no money?!

[quote Blossomtoes]@Glassofshloer, my annoyance is at the level of naivety and lack of realism on this thread. Of course I haven’t fallen for Tory spin and I’m quite insulted that you think I’m stupid enough to do so.

NICE exists to ensure a standard for care and treatment are met. That doesn’t include the kind of accommodation you get - it can’t for the reason I gave you above.[/quote]
Except that nice guidelines aren't being adhered to. Basic care in ALL areas of the NHS is not happening (some areas worse than others). If the basic care was being provided I wouldn't have an issue with the state of maternity services.

@Glassofshloer

Yes *@Blossomtoes but you haven’t explained why we have, for example, millions to Chuck away on useless test & trace/HS2 etc but apparently it’s unreasonable to expect equal* NHS care to other women because there’s no money?!

Don’t ask me. I’m as pissed off at the way this government spends money as you are.

OP I completely agree. Me and a couple of friends were saying recently that in labour we were all conscious of trying to cope with pain without epidural for fear of being moved off lovely MLU and onto grotty CDU.

As other PPS have said, it's not about the decor of the room, it's about the standard of facilities and care you receive on those different wards / rooms. Putting a woman who has been through a difficult birth onto a noisy, non private ward does no one any favours. Least of all the MH of the mother.

@Blossomtoes if you’re so pissed off about it, why are you discouraging other people from expecting better services? And being so defeatist about it?

Also OP I think you might be the same NHS trust as me, a, few practical matters -

I WAS allowed in the birth pool with a cannula in, with a waterproof cover over it - although in this case the cannula was not actively attached to anything it was for precautionary measures only due to previous PpH.

Also a possibly little-known fact -southmead has private side rooms off the main birthing rooms in the mlu and I was allowed back onto this even though I had had to go into surgery for a retained placenta . I fought hard for this and it was in my mental health plan (made following previous traumatic birth)

[quote Glassofshloer]@Blossomtoes if you’re so pissed off about it, why are you discouraging other people from expecting better services? And being so defeatist about it?[/quote]
I’m a realist. I worked in the NHS for over 20 years and I know all too well how hard it is to effect change. There isn’t enough funding and there’s huge internal competition for what is available. It’s haemorrhaging staff and those who remain are burnt out and disillusioned. Many of those staff are midwives.

My two closest hospitals (both 45 mins/hour away) were both found to be ‘poor’ and needing major improvement in both facilities and poor staffing. I’m classed as high risk due to my PCOS and will most likely have to deliver in one of those hospitals which is quite a grim prospect either that or risk a home birth when the nearest hospital is 45 mins away as they won’t let me deliver in an MLU. Maternity services as a whole need more money put into them, it’s not about fairy lights. Horrified to read about women on wards having to share bathroom facilities with visitors, those should be for the women who have given birth only so they can get a shower and reserve some dignity and privacy after going through one of the biggest things they will ever go through in their life.

High risk because of PCOS? Why is that @Lorw if I can ask? I have to admit I’m very surprised you can’t use an MLU due to PCOS.

Yes I had visitors etc using the ONE bathroom between EIGHT women!!! All of whom needed a daily shower, toilet trips, trips to change their sanitary wear - it was awful. I finally got in & ran a bath in the hope it would soothe my stitches, and some bloke kept banging on the door and asking when I would be done

@Lorw

I would fight that reccomendation if you want an MLU birth, the Birthrights charity which works closely with the NHS currently reccomends any decision to refuse a woman admission to a birth centre must be backed-up by evidence which supports the decision. For example, if a woman is refused admission because of a particular risk factor in her pregnancy, there must be clear clinical evidence that additional risks may arise during the birth that cannot be safely managed in a birth centre.

Get a meeting with the head consultant midwife at your trust and she will put together an "out of guidelines care plan" for you if you would prefer to be on an MLU

www.aims.org.uk/information/item/choosing-place-of-birth#post-heading-5