To think all men who travel should call 777 and have their GPS tracked and location checked?

[SummersOverSeasideTown]

As it says.
I'd be open to a curfew time, so men can travel during the day maybe, but at night they would have to log their journeys and expected arrival time.

IABU and men should continue to enjoy limitless freedoms and it should be women who have to call and be tracked.

IANBU and this is a reasonable solution to the alternative.

Find my phone type apps, has been around for > 10 yrs. Not age, sex or gender limited.

The option to voluntarily put oneself under surveillance by many others has been there for years. I'm an emergency contact for at least 2 ppl already - if they find themselves not arriving where they wanted at right time or simply falling over unexpectedly.

Friend tracked her cheating husband because he had this option turned on, years ago.

@PattiPritell

We should separate women attacked by someone they know in their own homes and women attacked outside by a stranger - not in the stats of attacks but in seeking g solutions. Although I suppose they all have underlying misogyny.

They’re also not mutually exclusive. A man being violent inside the home doesn’t mean he won’t be violent outside of it. Why would you want them separated?

They’re also not mutually exclusive. A man being violent inside the home doesn’t mean he won’t be violent outside of it. Why would you want them separated?

They're not, you're right. But there are also some men who will only ever attack strangers in public, and those who will only ever attack their partners behind closed doors. The methods, aetiology and psychological drivers of these men men may differ. If we want to address both forms of violence, we may at times need different approaches.

@Lulu2021

They’re also not mutually exclusive. A man being violent inside the home doesn’t mean he won’t be violent outside of it. Why would you want them separated?

They're not, you're right. But there are also some men who will only ever attack strangers in public, and those who will only ever attack their partners behind closed doors. The methods, aetiology and psychological drivers of these men men may differ. If we want to address both forms of violence, we may at times need different approaches.

But they probably won’t though - both come under the umbrella of ‘male entitlement’.

@Pumperthepumper

Sorry, probably won't what?

[quote Lulu2021]@Pumperthepumper

Sorry, probably won't what? [/quote]
The methods, aetiology and psychological drivers of these men men may differ.

Differ.

@Pumperthepumper

As a forensic psychologist with many years training and experience, I can tell you that they generally do. Male entitlement is too simplistic and explanation for all violence by men.

[quote Lulu2021]@Pumperthepumper

As a forensic psychologist with many years training and experience, I can tell you that they generally do. Male entitlement is too simplistic and explanation for all violence by men. [/quote]
Differ how? I’d love to hear more of your opinion on this: what do we gain by separating the causes?

Mandatory surveillance is in no way comparable to offering a tracking safety service really. That should be obvious as should the differences on the impacts on civil liberties really.

I do get the frustration that prompts those comments such as the OP of this thread, but I really don't think they have any positive impact in getting more men to support genuine interventions to reduce male violence. It is just fodder for the manosphere to further harden their mysogynistic antagonism to the plight of women and girls.

@Pumperthepumper I'm no professional, but surely by recognising and separating different causes we can actually put in place meaningful and effective interventions against those specific causes? What causes violent behaviour in young men from socially and economically deprived backgrounds may well not be the same as that that drives violence amongst middle-aged affluent middle class men.

[quote Eleganz]@Pumperthepumper I'm no professional, but surely by recognising and separating different causes we can actually put in place meaningful and effective interventions against those specific causes? What causes violent behaviour in young men from socially and economically deprived backgrounds may well not be the same as that that drives violence amongst middle-aged affluent middle class men.[/quote]
What meaningful interventions?

And why would different factors drive violence outside of the umbrella term ‘male entitlement’? What other factors are there?

On the offchance that this isn't trolling, your idea is clearly illegal

@Pumperthepumper

I'm not a professional so I don't have all the answers. However, no social problem I've seen has been successfully tackled by assuming that every case has the same root cause.

Some other factors could include economic deprivation, particular cultural norms within certain racial, ethnic or religious groups, educational disadvantage, lack of scrutiny due to social class or position, etc.

Targeted interventions could included educational programmes, employment programmes, cultural programmes, adjustment of reporting requirements for "precursor activities" to prevent higher status men from "getting away" with bad behaviour, particular police interventions within certain communities and groups. Some of this actually happens around tackling gang violence for example and I'm sure there are parallels we could draw there for certain things, but I would say that new thinking is needed to tackle the causes behind men in positions of responsibility for example.

I mean you can of course say that these are all different facets of male entitlement, but men are not a monolithic group just as women who suffer from male violence aren't.

@Pumperthepumper

Off the top of my head, a few other factors underpinning male violence in my professional experience :

1. poor emotional regulation / impulse control
2. trauma / early abuse / poor role models - many men who assault women have early histories of abuse by their own fathers towards both themselves and their mothers
3. poor emotional literacy- many men struggle to tolerate, reflect on and appropriately express negative emotions in the way that women are naturally much more skilled at doing, and so often lash out as a manifestation of these emotions building up.
4. Attachment difficulties leading to jealousy and insecurity within relationships.

Yes, societal misogyny and male entitlement is a huge concern and it no doubt perpetuates an awful lot of male violence. But individual histories and psychological functioning are also key in tackling the issue.

To give an example of how intimate partner violence may be driven by different factors than stranger violence:

Man A assaults partner in his home because he is jealous and insecure about her friendship with a male colleague, for example. She tells him he's being ridiculous, it's nothing. He gets angry and assaults her - loss of impulse control combined with jealousy/insecurity.

Man B assaults stranger in the street after waiting for any woman to walk past. She is completely unknown to him so they share no relationship history; he is not jealous or insecure with respect to her. He has planned this for months and it is calmly executed with no loss of temper / impulse control. He has been having violent fantasies about assaulting women for months.

Both are violent men. But their relationship to the victim and their key motivating factors for offending differ. There may be some similarities of course. But generally speaking we see jet differences between the offending profiles of men who assault women versus their own partners.

[quote Lulu2021]@Pumperthepumper

Off the top of my head, a few other factors underpinning male violence in my professional experience :

1. poor emotional regulation / impulse control
2. trauma / early abuse / poor role models - many men who assault women have early histories of abuse by their own fathers towards both themselves and their mothers
3. poor emotional literacy- many men struggle to tolerate, reflect on and appropriately express negative emotions in the way that women are naturally much more skilled at doing, and so often lash out as a manifestation of these emotions building up.
4. Attachment difficulties leading to jealousy and insecurity within relationships.

Yes, societal misogyny and male entitlement is a huge concern and it no doubt perpetuates an awful lot of male violence. But individual histories and psychological functioning are also key in tackling the issue.

To give an example of how intimate partner violence may be driven by different factors than stranger violence:

Man A assaults partner in his home because he is jealous and insecure about her friendship with a male colleague, for example. She tells him he's being ridiculous, it's nothing. He gets angry and assaults her - loss of impulse control combined with jealousy/insecurity.

Man B assaults stranger in the street after waiting for any woman to walk past. She is completely unknown to him so they share no relationship history; he is not jealous or insecure with respect to her. He has planned this for months and it is calmly executed with no loss of temper / impulse control. He has been having violent fantasies about assaulting women for months.

Both are violent men. But their relationship to the victim and their key motivating factors for offending differ. There may be some similarities of course. But generally speaking we see jet differences between the offending profiles of men who assault women versus their own partners. [/quote]
Ok. So how do we sort any of this by separating victims into street victims and home victims?

But, if it makes even a small number women feel safer, then I can’t see the harm.

It is harmful for women to feel safer, if there is no actual increase in their safety. Surely that's obvious? If the threat remains the same (or is increased by the lesser perception of threat), then that is dangerous.

My feeling is that this is being backed by the odious Ms Patel because then she can point to some action being taken, no matter how token and useless.

If I was to use 888 my nearest and dearest might find out I've been murdered up to 54% sooner than if I'd been murdered without using the app. And let's face it, that's more time for people to start up threads saying "well yes, she was killed by man but I'm sick of man bashing and my DH loads the dishwasher and never gets any thanks!!"

@Pumperthepumper

It's less about separating the victims by category, and more about separating the offenders by factors underpinning and motivating their offending. That's where we intervene to try to effect change, IMO.

[quote Lulu2021]@Pumperthepumper

It's less about separating the victims by category, and more about separating the offenders by factors underpinning and motivating their offending. That's where we intervene to try to effect change, IMO. [/quote]
How do we intervene?

Any chance this ridiculous 888 app could get hacked and people have a marauders map of vulnerable women walking alone?

@NigellaSeed

If I was to use 888 my nearest and dearest might find out I've been murdered up to 54% sooner than if I'd been murdered without using the app. And let's face it, that's more time for people to start up threads saying "well yes, she was killed by man but I'm sick of man bashing and my DH loads the dishwasher and never gets any thanks!!"

No. If I use the 888 ap then my nearest and dearest find out when I haven't made it back home in time. That gives them an alert to go out and try and find me on the route I stated I was taking. And to track me or to at least know at what point the tracking was turned off. And to give an admittedly small chance of being found before I'm killed or raped. But a bigger chance of finding the perpetrator. If you don't want to use it then find, that's not a problem for me. But if they manage to get it to work then I will use it. And why should you seek to stop me?

Yes in a utopian world we'll stop the men committing these heinous crimes. But until we do I'll take anything reasonable that either keeps me safer or makes it easier to track down the criminals.

No. If I use the 888 ap then my nearest and dearest find out when I haven't made it back home in time. That gives them an alert to go out and try and find me on the route I stated I was taking.

So who is watching this app, your nearest and dearest? Who is going to look for you when you go missing, your nearest and dearest? If yes then why does BT need 50 million Great British Pounds to do what is already possible on a free app?

It'll just become another thing that women "ought" to do to keep themselves safe. And if they don't, they'll have to justify why not if they have to go to court because they've been attacked. And it won't actually make anyone safer.

It'll never be something that men "ought" to do, despite being more likely to be attacked.

Nobody is seriously suggesting mandatory tracking or chipping of men, but it's interesting that also nobody is suggesting that maybe it's something they "ought" to sign up for so that they can give an alibi in the event that a woman is attacked nearby. If we could rule out the "good guys" maybe it'd be easier to find the bad guys, eh?

I'm not trying to stop you MiddleSexGirl. I would assume the brace position in a plane crash, so that they might identify me by my dental records, I don't judge you if this app brings you comfort. But, much like the brace position, it won't save you.

Most people, be they male, female or toasters have a facility to allow 24/7 tracking by GPS. I'm typing on it and it usually lives in my bag. Your probably reading this on yours. ( Mobile phone).