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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think all men who travel should call 777 and have their GPS tracked and location checked?

352 replies

SummersOverSeasideTown · 09/10/2021 12:51

As it says.
I'd be open to a curfew time, so men can travel during the day maybe, but at night they would have to log their journeys and expected arrival time.

IABU and men should continue to enjoy limitless freedoms and it should be women who have to call and be tracked.

IANBU and this is a reasonable solution to the alternative.

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 09/10/2021 20:51

[quote StarfishDish]@SummersOverSeasideTown Going back to your OP with the curfew, what would happen to the male police officers that help arrest the rapists and murderers?[/quote]
Why don’t you give us some of your suggestions for how we can reduce male violence?

SummersOverSeasideTown · 09/10/2021 20:52

@Claudia84

No *@Lulu2021* the OP is highlighting how ridiculous BTs latest announcement (backed by Priti Patel) since that's what they are suggesting women do.
I thought by page 11 and lots of posters explaining this would be obvious.
OP posts:
Lulu2021 · 09/10/2021 20:56

That's great but... what is your suggestion then. OP?

Lulu2021 · 09/10/2021 20:57

Lulu - you do realise you have completely missed the point?

I'm not sure the point is entirely clearly articulated if I'm honest...

Lulu2021 · 09/10/2021 21:06

@SummersOverSeasideTown

Excellent post - I wholeheartedly agree.

But do you think it is acceptable for women?

Just to answer this - I can only answer for myself personally. I would use the service if it existed, yes.

Lulu2021 · 09/10/2021 21:08

I don't believe it is sufficient in tackling male violence. Not even close. But I don't feel it's unacceptable, either.

jacks11 · 09/10/2021 21:16

@SummersOverSeasideTown

Do I think the BT idea is the most effective suggestion? No, I don’t. Do I think it’ll make a significant difference to the rate of assault/rape/murder of women? No, not really. But, if it makes even a small number women feel safer, then I can’t see the harm. If you don’t like it, or don’t trust that the system won’t be abused or hacked etc- fine, simply don’t use it. My understanding is that it is a voluntary thing, nobody is making anybody use it. It’s not saying “women keep yourself safe” it’s saying “if you are walking home alone, this is something you might like to do to make you feel safer/try to ensure someone comes looking for you if you don’t turn make it home in the expected time frame”. It might help a few women, I suppose.

I just think there are more problematic issues in this area. There’s lots to be angry about. This isn’t, in my opinion, a massive issue. Unless it is the only thing that is going to be suggested, which it isn’t, I can’t find it in myself to be outraged about it.

Lulu2021 · 09/10/2021 21:34

@jacks11

Yet again I completely agree. It's voluntary and if it helps some women feel reassured and safer, where's the harm? So long as it's not being packaged as the "solution" to male violence with nothing else changing alongside it...

StarfishDish · 09/10/2021 21:40

@Pumperthepumper Not by tracking and giving all men a curfew for a minority.

Cheeserton · 09/10/2021 21:40

While it's shit to have to mitigate the dangers, it's not an either/or situation here. Men shouldn't attack women, but we all know there's no magic wand to fix that overnight. In the meantime, I will take any possible reasonable steps to improve my daughters' safety.

Pumperthepumper · 09/10/2021 21:49

[quote StarfishDish]@Pumperthepumper Not by tracking and giving all men a curfew for a minority.[/quote]
Ok, so what are your suggestions?

Lulu2021 · 09/10/2021 22:01

@Claudia84 yes I can see that. I'm still a little unclear as to what the OP is advocating instead, though?

sleeponeday · 09/10/2021 22:05

@jacks11

The question is- would this suggestion actually change anything? No it wouldn’t. And what it will do is alienate a large proportion of men. And many women. It will create division and fuel conflict- and make men even less likely to engage in the issue. Not many people react well to being told they are monsters by definition, solely due to a characteristic they can do nothing about.

I hate the discourse around this issue. Yes, it’s a very serious and endemic issue. It absolutely needs addressing- it needed addressing years ago. These stupid tokenistic suggestions- curfews for all men, tracking all men, only men having to have their DNA on file- are not going to help most women or stop men who are intent on causing harm from doing so. It won’t change attitudes/change toxic masculinity/change the drivers of violence towards girls and women. Given that, it smacks of “getting revenge” and making men “pay” (albeit cloaked as something else), rather than serious attempts to address the problem at hand. We need to do- and be- better than that.

If you want things to get better, you need to address root causes/wider societal issues. Anything else is simply a distraction.

I also doubt it’s even enforceable. Are we going to mandate all men to buy a mobile phone (I know most people do already- but for this to work all would have to have one) AND must carry it all times AND must use this tracking system. The law abiding might do it. The non-law abiding/ those out with intent to cause trouble/attack someone aren’t going to. Police will not have time to stop every single man to check they have a phone/have their gps on etc. And it’s probably open to legal challenge (which is probably just as well).

I think the tracking idea is simply rage that the new big idea to support women is a phone number they can call, which will then track them, via their phone, safely home.

Apparently it's impossible to imagine that anyone with access to this system might therefore be able to locate lone women, walking in isolated areas, late at night.

I think the OP is simply reversing that - current, supported, genuine - suggestion and seeing how much it outrages people when applied to men. Which it has.

I don't think there is any real sense that this would solve anything. Which is the point - it won't solve anything, and it is yet another intrusion on women's freedoms. Which nobody is fussed about, yet when someone repeats the idea, making it men affected, the reaction is explosive.

urbanbuddha · 09/10/2021 22:09

Lulu2021

Best to read the thread before you post on it. Otherwise you might shut it down.

jacks11 · 09/10/2021 22:44

@sleeponeday

But it’s not comparing like with like, it’s not even close! OP’s suggestion is that ALL men MUST be tracked ALL the time. The BT suggestion- whilst it has it’s limitations and flaws- is to my understanding an App which a woman can chose to download (or not). It’s not mandatory or applicable to all women. To try and suggest OP is drawing a direct analogy is disingenuous, at best. It grates on me, as I said I find this discourse unhelpful.

And whilst it is not impossible to imagine that the system could be hacked or abused (same as with any app or technology because there is no 100% fail safe system in existence) I suspect it is not inevitable either. If you will only accept perfection, you will be waiting a long time.

Again- if you don’t like the idea, by all means do not use it. I don’t think the system is going to revolutionise the situation we find ourselves in, nor will it change the behaviour of dangerous or abusive men. And no, women should not have to change their behaviour or do things to keep themselves safe…. But in the real world, sometimes you have to be practical. Not to say you don’t push for change, but change is seldom quick or easy, so in the meantime I will suggest my daughter does take steps to keep herself safe.

And if this suggestion makes some women feel safer or helps even just a few women- whilst not harming anyone- why get so enraged about it? It’s not like anyone is seriously suggesting making the App available and nothing else as because the app alone is “job done”. It is a like the app is one component of a sticking plaster, it’s certainly not a cure. A bandage helps control the bleeding whilst you make your way to the hospital for stitches. You don’t just leave the wound bleeding profusely because stitches are the best treatment, do you? This is nothing like a solution, but it might help some women.

urbanbuddha · 09/10/2021 22:50

And if this suggestion makes some women feel safer or helps even just a few women

Exactly how do you think it would help any woman?

sleeponeday · 09/10/2021 23:07

[quote jacks11]@sleeponeday

But it’s not comparing like with like, it’s not even close! OP’s suggestion is that ALL men MUST be tracked ALL the time. The BT suggestion- whilst it has it’s limitations and flaws- is to my understanding an App which a woman can chose to download (or not). It’s not mandatory or applicable to all women. To try and suggest OP is drawing a direct analogy is disingenuous, at best. It grates on me, as I said I find this discourse unhelpful.

And whilst it is not impossible to imagine that the system could be hacked or abused (same as with any app or technology because there is no 100% fail safe system in existence) I suspect it is not inevitable either. If you will only accept perfection, you will be waiting a long time.

Again- if you don’t like the idea, by all means do not use it. I don’t think the system is going to revolutionise the situation we find ourselves in, nor will it change the behaviour of dangerous or abusive men. And no, women should not have to change their behaviour or do things to keep themselves safe…. But in the real world, sometimes you have to be practical. Not to say you don’t push for change, but change is seldom quick or easy, so in the meantime I will suggest my daughter does take steps to keep herself safe.

And if this suggestion makes some women feel safer or helps even just a few women- whilst not harming anyone- why get so enraged about it? It’s not like anyone is seriously suggesting making the App available and nothing else as because the app alone is “job done”. It is a like the app is one component of a sticking plaster, it’s certainly not a cure. A bandage helps control the bleeding whilst you make your way to the hospital for stitches. You don’t just leave the wound bleeding profusely because stitches are the best treatment, do you? This is nothing like a solution, but it might help some women.[/quote]
I don't disagree that it's an unacceptable intrusion on civil liberties, and I doubt the OP is genuinely for it, either. I also agree that the compulsion aspect is relevant. But it doesn't alter the fact that reducing rape incidence is always, always couched as things women can do. And while yes, of course that's relevant on an individual basis, it does nothing to reduce overall rates. There will always be someone more vulnerable. Sarah Everard terrifies because she did literally everything right, and there was no reasonable way she could have escaped. But suppose she had at the last moment seen a friend, who came up and asked what was happening, so the gargoyle backed off. All he would have done was locate a new, more vulnerable victim. There is, always, a more vulnerable victim. And all advice to women does is shuffle the deck on who, exactly, is victimised because there will ALWAYS be someone who is more easily victimised.

Telling women what to do to avoid being raped just means someone else is. That's what the advice boils down to. And actually, we agree on the reality that what is needed is to shift the cultural conversation, and provide far better scaffolding to young men - because, by definition of the crime itself, the ONLY person in a rape with agency is the rapist.

Misogyny enables rape. Cultures that denigrate and devalue children and women have huge problems with sexual violence, and violence against women and girls generally. And challenging ideas such as this, to highlight how pointless they are because the person with agency is not the woman victimised, is part of the process of trying to force the role men play, and societal norms play, in what we do and don't think is acceptable.

And as for it helping some women - how? By allowing low paid, almost certainly male, people to know the patterns of a number of women walking around late at night - who may be shift workers, with predictable routines? Really? If the police don't perform adequate background checks, you think security staff monitoring these systems will? And how does knowing where they go, when, and why, help anyone if they are harmed? All it does is say where the women were when and if they are assaulted - and they can tell someone that, themselves. So HOW does it help?

Ozgirl75 · 10/10/2021 05:27

Personally I think that men should only be allowed out after 8 or 9pm (earlier in the winter?) if they’re accompanied by a female chaperone. They are also only allowed out in mixed groups.
If they need to work in the evening they can be escorted home by a woman. I would allow them to drive their own cars home in the evening but only if they logged their journey before they left.

NeverNotNoNameNeverNoMore · 10/10/2021 05:29

@Ozgirl75

Personally I think that men should only be allowed out after 8 or 9pm (earlier in the winter?) if they’re accompanied by a female chaperone. They are also only allowed out in mixed groups. If they need to work in the evening they can be escorted home by a woman. I would allow them to drive their own cars home in the evening but only if they logged their journey before they left.
A truly ridiculous post.
Ozgirl75 · 10/10/2021 05:59

It’s tongue in cheek you loon GrinConfused
In answer to the “women have to take on all the responsibility”

Lulu2021 · 10/10/2021 07:06

@urbanbuddha

And if this suggestion makes some women feel safer or helps even just a few women

Exactly how do you think it would help any woman?

I can only speak for myself. It would help me to feel reassured and safer.

Lulu2021 · 10/10/2021 07:07

@urbanbuddha

Lulu2021

Best to read the thread before you post on it. Otherwise you might shut it down.

I have read the thread, thanks.

Lulu2021 · 10/10/2021 07:08

@Ozgirl75

Personally I think that men should only be allowed out after 8 or 9pm (earlier in the winter?) if they’re accompanied by a female chaperone. They are also only allowed out in mixed groups. If they need to work in the evening they can be escorted home by a woman. I would allow them to drive their own cars home in the evening but only if they logged their journey before they left.

But .... Who would put the kids to bed if women were escorting them home?! 😂

Lulu2021 · 10/10/2021 07:11

But it’s not comparing like with like, it’s not even close! OP’s suggestion is that ALL men MUST be tracked ALL the time. The BT suggestion- whilst it has it’s limitations and flaws- is to my understanding an App which a woman can chose to download (or not). It’s not mandatory or applicable to all women. To try and suggest OP is drawing a direct analogy is disingenuous, at best. It grates on me, as I said I find this discourse unhelpful.

Exactly. It's a false comparison.

Lulu2021 · 10/10/2021 07:11

@jacks11

Your posts have (far more eloquently!) echoed all of my thoughts so far.