To ask how you can justify using a woodburner in a city or town

[MojoMoon]

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/09/eco-wood-stoves-emit-pollution-hgv-ecodesign?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

New wood burning stoves billed as more environmentally friendly still emit 750 times more tiny particle pollution than a modern HGV truck, a report has shown.

Only stoves that meet the ecodesign standard can be legally sold from the start of 2022 in the UK and EU, but experts said the regulation was shockingly weak.

The report used data on the emissions produced by stoves in perfect laboratory conditions and the pollution could be even higher in everyday use, the researchers said, with older stoves being much worse.

Tiny particle pollution – called PM2.5 – is especially harmful to health as it can pass through the lungs into the bloodstream and then be carried around the body and lodge in organs. At least 40 ,000 early deaths a year are attributed to wood burning in Europe.

Wood burners also triple the level of harmful pollution inside homes and should be sold with a health warning, said the scientist behind a study published in December. The researchers advised that the stoves should not be used around elderly people or children.

The government may have banned the burning of wet wood but has no plans to ban the sale of woodburners, despite the fact that the 8pc of homes that use them are almost entirely in cities and can use power or gas for heating. And are almost entirely fairly wealthy households.

(Those of you who live a "very rural" location, to use a common Mumsnet phrase and are entirely off grid may justifiably need one. But the question was cities and towns).

It worries me so few people know how dangerous PM2.5 emissions are, particularly for pregnant women and children.

YANBU: correct, woodburners should be banned in homes in cities and towns asap

YABU: no, they look pretty and who cares about science and health

@MojoMoon

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/09/eco-wood-stoves-emit-pollution-hgv-ecodesign?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

New wood burning stoves billed as more environmentally friendly still emit 750 times more tiny particle pollution than a modern HGV truck, a report has shown.

Only stoves that meet the ecodesign standard can be legally sold from the start of 2022 in the UK and EU, but experts said the regulation was shockingly weak.

The report used data on the emissions produced by stoves in perfect laboratory conditions and the pollution could be even higher in everyday use, the researchers said, with older stoves being much worse.

Tiny particle pollution – called PM2.5 – is especially harmful to health as it can pass through the lungs into the bloodstream and then be carried around the body and lodge in organs. At least 40 ,000 early deaths a year are attributed to wood burning in Europe.

Wood burners also triple the level of harmful pollution inside homes and should be sold with a health warning, said the scientist behind a study published in December. The researchers advised that the stoves should not be used around elderly people or children.

The government may have banned the burning of wet wood but has no plans to ban the sale of woodburners, despite the fact that the 8pc of homes that use them are almost entirely in cities and can use power or gas for heating. And are almost entirely fairly wealthy households.

(Those of you who live a "very rural" location, to use a common Mumsnet phrase and are entirely off grid may justifiably need one. But the question was cities and towns).

It worries me so few people know how dangerous PM2.5 emissions are, particularly for pregnant women and children.

YANBU: correct, woodburners should be banned in homes in cities and towns asap

YABU: no, they look pretty and who cares about science and health

I think people always forget about how horrible wood burning is for your overall health.

I’m going to be a contrarian here and say that burning fossil fuels is way better for individual health—took the fire pit out of the home.

I live in a small rural village and it still triggers my asthma when everyone has them on in the winter. I can only cope with mine by using briquettes instead of logs - stupid listed house with crap heating.

No need for one in a city at all, there are enough ways to heat a townhouse without one.

The worst thing about bonfires is what people burn.
And it’s the same with wood burners.

Because we had no central heating last winter. That's a pretty good justification imo, lol.

Funny they've not put their research paper in for publication in a respected peer-reviewed scientific journal unlike the paper they are criticising

Peer reviewed journals like the Evening Standard and the Guardian? You do realise that a lot of the funding for the "woodburners should be pitchforked" side comes from the road haulage lobby trying to play down the impact of the largest HGVs?

If you want to contribute to clear air trying avoiding flights, downsizing your car and only using it for essential journeys which gives a year round improvement to air quality.

Focusing on people who heat one room because of the cost of heating a house or who are stuck with whatever heating the landlord has installed smacks a bit of virtue signalling.

I live in Greater London and I have one. It's a properly certified eco stove and I only burn kiln dried logs so the emissions are low. I live at the end of a cul de sac with no passing pedestrians or near neighbours so I don't think I am harming anyone.

[quote MojoMoon]@Babymamamama. Yes, lots of people don't get that it could be "carbon neutral" and yet still polluting.

We're talking here about particulate emissions, not carbon.

It's local air quality, eg in your home, street that this matters most that global change.

It's why saying "well, people fly on holiday so woodfires are not a problem" is irrelevant. That's not causing PM2.5 emissions in my house and street.

(Not saying you should all fly loads either, we can care about both local and global issues at the same time)[/quote]
Oh this annoys the ever-loving fuck out of me.

Sure, we care about carbon emissions, which has no toxic effects on human health.

But not about actual air pollution that is literally harmful to human health and directly leads to the death of thousands annually. Even acutely—negative cardiac events are correlated with bad air days

@AnnaMagnani

I live in a small rural village and it still triggers my asthma when everyone has them on in the winter. I can only cope with mine by using briquettes instead of logs - stupid listed house with crap heating.

No need for one in a city at all, there are enough ways to heat a townhouse without one.

Renters, whether in town or country have no choice in their heating fuels.

Gosh, that report is frightening.

Suppose we won’t be lighting the stove in the new cottage in the middle of nowhere after all. Yet another small romantic dream bites the dust.

Oh well there’s always hand knitted jumpers. And imagination. And sloe gin.

I wonder how many people have actually bothered to even look at data on pollution levels where they live.

So many poor excuses on this thread - so many people on MN claim to be worried about their children's future yet so few are prepared to do something about it.

@NautaOcts. Oh, bonfires are bad of course. And mad they are still allowed so freely in built up areas.

But it's fairly rare that your neighbour is having s bonfire every evening during autumn and winter but they may well be using their wood burning stove every day

So wood burning stoves are more of a problem overall. The odd bonfire can't compare to regular usage. So tackling woodburning stoves is the most effective thing to do.

@MapleMay11

I wonder how many people have actually bothered to even look at data on pollution levels where they live.

So many poor excuses on this thread - so many people on MN claim to be worried about their children's future yet so few are prepared to do something about it.

The monomania around carbon emissions has led to this.

Oh my goodness, I had no idea they were so bad!

We have one that we light perhaps once or twice a week in the winter for a couple of hours in the evening but I shall certainly think twice before doing so now!

@Practicebeingpatient

I live in Greater London and I have one. It's a properly certified eco stove and I only burn kiln dried logs so the emissions are low. I live at the end of a cul de sac with no passing pedestrians or near neighbours so I don't think I am harming anyone.

You are harming yourself, anyone in your home and your neighbourhood. Particulates don't care you are in a cul de sac, they travel in the air.

Read the reports please. I also linked in a post to London specific information. 23 - 31pc of PM2.5 particulates in London are from wood burning. This has a direct impact on health. Hospital admissions for asthma attacks and cardiac arrest rise on days when wood burning is high

There is one in my house (installed by previous owners) and I reluctantly decided last year to stop using it. I just can't justify it - we live in an urban area with very bad air pollution and a high level of childhood respiratory problems. It is horrible to think about children in less well-off families (who often live in inner city by busy roads and in low-lying areas where the air is poor) being made ill by smoke from nice cosy middle-class woodburners.

I absolutely loved my woodburner - it made my rather dark and cold house cosy and magical - and it took me a while to decide to stop using it, so I do understand people's resistance. But once you really think about it, it's hard to justify. Your actions (lighting your woodburner) are potentially directly and immediately impacting the people around you.

I really hate when people try and manipulate the AIBU choices like you have done.

We've got one because it saves us a fortune in heating costs .We've also got solar panels

This makes me feel better about my fake electric fire that I just had installed. It's obviously not the real thing at all but I think it looks nice and find the flame effect quite mesmerising. I couldn't justify a woodburner on our housing estate.
Having a real fire is a ball ache too. Too much cleaning and tending to it for me.

My parents had an open fire when I was growing up and now have a wood burner but they live in a remote rural place where that is the norm (got to have somewhere for your retired gundog to lie down) When my grandparents lived there the wood fired Aga was the only source of heating, hot water and cooker although they later had an electric back up.
I don't think I would go as far as to take the wood fire out if I lived there. It's mostly sheep that would suffer the woodsmoke.

I think there is a market for getting wood burning stoves converted somehow to electric. There must be a way to do this with some sort of heating element, without people having to get rid of nice stoves (which would be an environmental issue itself due to all the waste).

I’ve never lived in a house with an open fire or wood burner, but my PIL have an open fire. It’s rarely on, but I have to admit I love sitting by it when it is.

What would I do during a power cut? Get cold or decamp to the PIL’s house I suppose! It’s never happened to us up until now, but I suppose it’s always a possibility.

We have had one for 34 years. There is no gas here and not likely to be. Most people have oil, five have wood pellets and some have multi fuel stoves. Ours runs our central heating and hot water. We have always burnt seasoned logs ( bought in) and collected wood we put in log store which has three sections built from pallets so we know the wood is seasoned for long enough. We have never used coal as it is bad for the stove. We use semi Anthracite and Phurnicite . The latter is for late night and when we were working to keep it going. Our second stove was more modern and efficient and Defra approved. The doors are closed so it doesn’t affect the room. One of our sons is asthmatic he was before we came here and now lives in his own house. His asthma was no worse here than when he lived at the other two houses. I’m the same. My GP has multi fuel stoves in his house.
We live in a very small village in a rural area. Not sure what we would do if they ban them but at the moment we already comply with all the regulations and have always done so. I would think most people here do because they are aware that you shouldn’t burn green wood and the coal man would put them right about the correct fuel because he has one himself. When we bought the recent stove lots of people were putting them in for financial reasons at the time but a lot took them out because they are a bit of work.

@nestoftables

I think there is a market for getting wood burning stoves converted somehow to electric. There must be a way to do this with some sort of heating element, without people having to get rid of nice stoves (which would be an environmental issue itself due to all the waste).

Absolutely! I have long thought this is a great business opportunity.

DH and I both grew up with wood burners and have one in our house (a modern, apparently ‘clean burning’ one). It doesn’t feel like a proper winter’s evening without one.

The wood comes from DH’s old friend who is a tree surgeon.

We are pretty off the beaten track (no gas, not on mains sewerage, oil tank for our oil-fired heating) and have frequent power cuts, so it’s often our only source of heat and used for boiling water/basic cooking.

However, I do agree with you OP and both sets of parents have come to the same conclusion. DH’s parents had electric faux wood burners installed when they downsized. My own DP are planning an eco build and are looking at eco alternatives.

DH and I have decided that our current wood burner is the last one we’ll own. Sad, but I couldn’t buy another in good conscience. We are having a small kitchen extension next year and I’m looking at bioethanol stoves.

I haven't used the one in our house for ages but woke up this morning to more news of rising gas prices and possible cuts to supply chains.
I will be reverting to using it.

Lots of people have no choice, though.

Many properties cost an absolute fortune to heat via gas or electric heating, and that's an issue that's only going get worse this winter when everyone's bills increase.

Last year we had no heating - it took British Gas five months to come and fit us with a new boiler. So we went from November to March with no way of heating the house except for the woodburner. We couldn't afford to pay to buy and use electric radiators and I wasn't prepared to sit in a house that was only 9 degrees all winter.