To ask how you can justify using a woodburner in a city or town

[MojoMoon]

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/09/eco-wood-stoves-emit-pollution-hgv-ecodesign?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

New wood burning stoves billed as more environmentally friendly still emit 750 times more tiny particle pollution than a modern HGV truck, a report has shown.

Only stoves that meet the ecodesign standard can be legally sold from the start of 2022 in the UK and EU, but experts said the regulation was shockingly weak.

The report used data on the emissions produced by stoves in perfect laboratory conditions and the pollution could be even higher in everyday use, the researchers said, with older stoves being much worse.

Tiny particle pollution – called PM2.5 – is especially harmful to health as it can pass through the lungs into the bloodstream and then be carried around the body and lodge in organs. At least 40 ,000 early deaths a year are attributed to wood burning in Europe.

Wood burners also triple the level of harmful pollution inside homes and should be sold with a health warning, said the scientist behind a study published in December. The researchers advised that the stoves should not be used around elderly people or children.

The government may have banned the burning of wet wood but has no plans to ban the sale of woodburners, despite the fact that the 8pc of homes that use them are almost entirely in cities and can use power or gas for heating. And are almost entirely fairly wealthy households.

(Those of you who live a "very rural" location, to use a common Mumsnet phrase and are entirely off grid may justifiably need one. But the question was cities and towns).

It worries me so few people know how dangerous PM2.5 emissions are, particularly for pregnant women and children.

YANBU: correct, woodburners should be banned in homes in cities and towns asap

YABU: no, they look pretty and who cares about science and health

YANBU but in general I'm always surprised by how little people care about air pollution, I guess because it's invisible and the effects aren't immediately apparent. I used to live somewhere where every parent I met was obsessed with feeding their child no sugar organic food and with rear-facing in the car until 6 but when I mentioned being concerned about it having some of the worst air quality in the country people looked at me like I had two heads for caring. It was one of the reasons we moved (and deliberately moved to a set up where we could go down to one car used only occasionally). But I think I feel quite emotional about it because I had recurrent miscarriages while living there and was quite devastated when the research showing that air quality like ours increased miscarriage risk as much as smoking does came out.

@Sunshineshow

They are a bit naff now aren’t they? Right next to the sign saying ‘live love home’ and the twigs in the pot.

@Sunshineshow. The most damning comment on them so far

Up until recently we had a log burner which was our only source of heat in the winter (bar a plug in heater which was extortionate to run). Lived in a built up area in an annex, husband works in landscaping so we used to save and season any timber from felled trees/branches/untreated wood etc and that did us for the year after. I miss the cosiness of having a log burner but it was a needy beast!

Thavks for the explanations above I did wonder about the carbon neutral issue…..on reflection then I think then the whole idea of carbon neutral is rubbish. Try telling your neighbours your fuel is carbon neutral when you are polluting and stinking out the whole street. In these COVID times with so many people having weakened lungs it’s an issue.

I had no clue of their impact until we almost purchased two last year. We removed our fire places and planned to put in two stoves. My DH grew up in a rural area and thought I was being ridiculous but he came round after reading the research.

I don’t think it’s well enough publicised at all - I only came across it because I was checking if the stove would irritate my youngest who is prone to chest infections. I explained to the retailer why I was cancelling the order and they acted like it was news to them - not surprising I guess when it’s your business.

They trigger asthma for me now. Which is odd because I grew up in a house with an open fire. Didn't get used all the time, but definitely sometimes in winter.

But I think now we know the damage that particulate emissions causes that the reasons for installing woodburners starts to look less attractive.

I'm house hunting at the minute and mentally including the cost of removing woodburners when I see them installed. I think in the next decade we will see moves to ban or severely restrict their use in towns and cities.

The wood smoke outdoors in winter in a lot of areas now is very unpleasant.

I hope you woodburner owners aren't helping yourself to fallen wood from National Trust owned woodlands. The local NT Rangers told me they lose a LOT of fallen timber to locals collecting it for woodburners. The NT have left it there as a habitat for fungi and insects.

@Babymamamama. Yes, lots of people don't get that it could be "carbon neutral" and yet still polluting.

We're talking here about particulate emissions, not carbon.

It's local air quality, eg in your home, street that this matters most that global change.

It's why saying "well, people fly on holiday so woodfires are not a problem" is irrelevant. That's not causing PM2.5 emissions in my house and street.

(Not saying you should all fly loads either, we can care about both local and global issues at the same time)

So I'm interested to know what those of you who have no gas or wood burner/open fire will do when the power goes out?

I will wear layers: wool vests/longjohns, wool jumpers, add on a dressing gown/poncho/blankets in the evening.

But, to be fair, I live in Cornwall. I expect I'd feel differently in I lived up north.

I am sad about this as I specifically bought an ecostove (and only burn dried wood from my own trees), but have to accept the research and will start phasing it out. Have to admit that last winter (when I lit my stove almost every evening as it was lockdown) I had a horrid cough for months.

Wood pellet stove. Cosy, warm, economical, environmentally friendly.

I think the issue is if they are banned in towns and cities, how would this work? We have one as we are rural (several miles from the local town) however we have the local towns name on our address. Without it, we'd have no heating in some areas of the house - if they banned it in towns then how would it be policed? I think it would be quite hard!

It's cold up north 🥶

I'm interested to know what those of you who have no gas or wood burner/open fire will do when the power goes out?

Still not sure anyone has answered this yet. I remember one occasion when snow took the power lines out to my parents house and we all had to move into the living room for 36 hours because it's the only room with the fire. But at least we were warm and we could heat water / soup / make toast.

There's talk of the power going out this winter due to shortages of gas (which I hope is just media hyperbole). I don't have a wood burner or open fire in my flat so I'm not sure what I'll do if it does happen.

I want to be warm. This conspiracy of the goverment trying to ban solid fuels and trying to ban gas boilers in future so that all homes must be heated with expensive electric heaters (probably sourced from electric companies they own shares in!) is all very well and good for rich politicians who are too lazy to go after the real sources of pollution but until there is another eco-friendly option which affordably and effectively heats my home and doesn't come with the constant threat of random price hikes such as are currently happening I am going to keep burning wood - which when properly dried and in an up to code stove releases a tiny fraction of the polution on my street every day from traffic etc.

It's why saying "well, people fly on holiday so woodfires are not a problem" is irrelevant.

Except I didn't say that and you're being facetious. I was responding to someone who said they don't have a wood burner as the harm they cause to others is unconscionable. I was pointing out that the harm caused by flying / driving is also unconscionable but we seem to be fairly happy doing that too. (FWIW I don't own a car and haven't been abroad for some time!).

I partly agree - people are in denial about the impact of their activities on the environment and other people.

I do actually have one - but only use it in winter, maybe once a week, as a bit of a treat, and only use properly dried wood.

If wood burners are to be completely banned, then I think we need some consistency in approach and also ban BBQs, which are much worse.

@Strugglingtodomybest

So I'm interested to know what those of you who have no gas or wood burner/open fire will do when the power goes out?

I will wear layers: wool vests/longjohns, wool jumpers, add on a dressing gown/poncho/blankets in the evening.

But, to be fair, I live in Cornwall. I expect I'd feel differently in I lived up north.

Take it from someone who knows...if your boiler packs up in January and you have to wait 4 days for it to be fixed wool vests/longjohns, wool jumpers, add on a dressing gown/poncho/blankets in the evening don't cut it after day 3.

@nosyupnorth

I want to be warm. This conspiracy of the goverment trying to ban solid fuels and trying to ban gas boilers in future so that all homes must be heated with expensive electric heaters (probably sourced from electric companies they own shares in!) is all very well and good for rich politicians who are too lazy to go after the real sources of pollution but until there is another eco-friendly option which affordably and effectively heats my home and doesn't come with the constant threat of random price hikes such as are currently happening I am going to keep burning wood - which when properly dried and in an up to code stove releases a tiny fraction of the polution on my street every day from traffic etc.

Come on, this is silly. There is no conspiracy. We need to address climate change as we are already feeling the impact. No one is going to be forced to use electric heaters. They are looking at other options - e.g. using clean hydrogen instead of gas, etc.

[quote MojoMoon]@Shitfuckcommaetc why? It's referenced in the article

@toconclude. No - read the paper. They used all the best burning practices in an eco stove and this was the result. It says people using them in real life are likely to not follow best burning practices and so the results will be even worse.

People on favour of having woodburners - does it not concern you re your children's or fetus' health? It's bad for you in your own home - while I don't deny big business needs to be the ones doing most about climate change in general, this really is localised air pollution and so individual choices matter.[/quote]
If it were that bad for people's health, most of rural France would be deserted. It's standard to use log burners in France, and weirdly you see an awful lot of people living into a ripe old age.

We’ve got one, put it in about 10 years ago when there was no hooha about them, I was seen as an environmentally friendly option. We only use it a few times a year coz it isn’t convenient to have just one room warm so it’s not something I have paid a huge amount of attention to.

Is there anything we can burn in there which isn’t considered a problem?

@BluebellsGreenbells

I have one and installed it due to power cuts and out boiler broke one Christmas and I will never suffer minus temperatures over winter again!

Our hose has a lot of insulation and the fire is lit occasionally when extremely cold -

I don’t need to justify it

Yes again people are penalized not businesses

So tired of hearing the 'its businesses' argument.

Businesses exist to serve people's wants. People serve people's wants. There's no magical way to achieve all the same outcomes with way less pollution.

Either we make better choices and accept the need to pay more for businesses to cover the cost of mitigations etc - or if not, at least be honest that we are putting our desires for.a nice woodburner and new clothes every season ahead of our children's health, worker wellbeing and the long term sustainability.of our planet.

When the electrical blackouts start and the gas taps from Russia are turned off ( or it becomes too expensive to use) then I will still have a source of heating.

I'm already thankful that we went for a traditional gas boiler with a hot water tank after having no water due to a burst water main in a cottage with a combi boiler and no storage tanks.

We are all becoming much too dependent on centralised services and distribution which is why a minor hiccup causes such problems. No resilience is built into our systems.

It is a real shame they are now considered so harmful. Because apart form the aesthetic and direct heat, which lets face it is nice, in these uncertain times it does feel good to have a low tech backup for heating (and cooking)
We have definitely appreciated our stove and open fire on occasions the boiler is not working through having a fault, there being a power cut, or running out of oil.

I’d also be interested to know how the harm from domestic woodburners compares to that from people having bonfires to burn garden waste as I feel more impacted by that.

I absolutely detest these stoves and the huge rise in garden fire pits. I am surrounded by people that like to burn things all the time........I have 2 medical conditions triggered by smoke and so sometimes actually have to leave my house and go out when my neighbour starts burning. I can't use my own garden, can't open windows, hang washing or even stay at home because someone close by decides to burn shit.
I contacted the council who basically shrugged their shoulders, saying they can do nothing. Meanwhile I'm left unable to use my home or garden because of the frequency of local burning. Hate these things- they shouldn't be allowed in villages or towns. No neighbours for miles, then crack on but in close proximity it just shouldn't happen.
I appreciate I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about it, but it's so wearing day after day - and because its different people each time I cannot get any help.