To ask how you can justify using a woodburner in a city or town

[MojoMoon]

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/09/eco-wood-stoves-emit-pollution-hgv-ecodesign?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

New wood burning stoves billed as more environmentally friendly still emit 750 times more tiny particle pollution than a modern HGV truck, a report has shown.

Only stoves that meet the ecodesign standard can be legally sold from the start of 2022 in the UK and EU, but experts said the regulation was shockingly weak.

The report used data on the emissions produced by stoves in perfect laboratory conditions and the pollution could be even higher in everyday use, the researchers said, with older stoves being much worse.

Tiny particle pollution – called PM2.5 – is especially harmful to health as it can pass through the lungs into the bloodstream and then be carried around the body and lodge in organs. At least 40 ,000 early deaths a year are attributed to wood burning in Europe.

Wood burners also triple the level of harmful pollution inside homes and should be sold with a health warning, said the scientist behind a study published in December. The researchers advised that the stoves should not be used around elderly people or children.

The government may have banned the burning of wet wood but has no plans to ban the sale of woodburners, despite the fact that the 8pc of homes that use them are almost entirely in cities and can use power or gas for heating. And are almost entirely fairly wealthy households.

(Those of you who live a "very rural" location, to use a common Mumsnet phrase and are entirely off grid may justifiably need one. But the question was cities and towns).

It worries me so few people know how dangerous PM2.5 emissions are, particularly for pregnant women and children.

YANBU: correct, woodburners should be banned in homes in cities and towns asap

YABU: no, they look pretty and who cares about science and health

My ex-inlaws had one put in 2 or 3 years ago when they renovated their home. They live in a busy part of town, close to a primary school and a college, on a main(ish) road. Their justification is literally because it's "the in-thing to have", because their friends have them and they don't want to feel as though they're not keeping up with the proverbial.

They have more money than sense, though, so I wasn't remotely surprised by their decision. What upset me, though, was the fact that they totally destroyed the 1920s architecture of their (once beautiful but now a horrifically modern) home and removed an open fire in order to have the burner fitted. Ex-MIL bleated on about how their wood would be free, too, as my ex is a tree surgeon... not realising, nor indeed listening to me when I tried to explain, that they can't use green wood or burn some types of tree without realising toxins into the atmosphere. My son refuses to visit their home during the colder months now, because of the smell.

Their loss - but all because of their vanity/pride at not wanting to be seen as unfashionable or lacking in money.

*How can I justify if? Easy! I love the atmospheric feel of having a lovely toasty fire to sit in front of while it’s awful weather outside.

There’s nothing more seasonal 🥰 *

Yes but I think children's health should trump you feeling cosy with your blanky and hot choccy.

We have one, we live in a (small) town and had it for quite a few years now (before there was any calls for wood burners to be an issues on an environment pov - or at least I can’t remember it!).

Our choice was based on cost tbh. We get the wood from my PIL farm so rarely buy any. When my parents were at their old house, they also had quite a bit of wood they didn’t use. It was just cheaper.

Now can we really look at it and say it’s ok to carry on using it?
I’d agree we shouldn’t but the cost of heating the house so we are comfortable are putting us off tbh. Esp now that DH is wfh too.

@WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld

I have a multi fuel stove in the sitting room. I have been planning to have it removed for environmental reasons. I'm semi rural so pollution is less of a concern here but it still bothers me I've only ever used smokeless coal or coffee logs. Any thing else gives me asthma I'm glad I still have it now due to the rise in gas prices. It means I can hear one room and it does warm the house up through the chimney

I’d not heard of coffee logs.

We have an open fireplace in the dining room, which we have never lit in the 30 years we’ve been here, and in the living room a living flame gas fire which has been disconnected from the gas. But I miss having something in the grate, especially at Christmas. Coffee logs sound interesting.

@UsedUpUsername If you stay inner city I don't think wood burners are your only problem then..

YANBU. When we were buying our house we viewed one which had a log burner in the living room and didn't buy it because we are in the inner city and it's just not acceptable. They should absolutely be banned in non-rural areas.

In many places burning wood is illegal: www.gov.uk/smoke-control-area-rules

We have a multi fuel stove which burns smokeless ovoids. We don't routinely burn wood, just a few twigs to get it going.

We don't use the central heating and rely on the stove to heat the house. I don't know what the particulate output is of smokeless fuel.

So I'm interested to know what those of you who have no gas or wood burner/open fire will do when the power goes out?

It’s fucking miserable tbh. Last year we suffered several power cuts over the space of a few months in the winter. It’s dark before 4pm and absolutely freezing. We ended up having to decamp to my parents house with their open fire. In previous homes I had an open fire and then a log burner. I miss them so much. This house actually has a fire but it’s boarded over. If I was ever able to buy this house (I rent) the first thing I would do is open up the fire.

YABU: no, they look pretty and who cares about science and health

What a loaded and limited reasoned yabu! Ridiculous.

£1000 fine for those who burn wood in Smoke Control Zones. The fine should be 10 times that. Nonetheless it is being enforced in many local authorities so those not complying with the law should take this seriously.

I have wanted a woodburner for years but we live in suburbs and it wouldn't be justifiable. Since various MN threads on the topic I now covet a mini Everhot for my sitting room on the day when we take out the awful gas fire.

@RoisinD

Wood pellet stove. Cosy, warm, economical, environmentally friendly.

The first three may well be true. The fourth has been pretty roundly debunked, from manufacturing to CO2 and PM2.5 intensity.

I’m in 2 minds. I don’t have a fireplace but had one growing up and really loved the open fire.
I would love to have some sort of fire place in my home but it would have to be a wood burner. I love the cosy ness and the fact that I would be able to have heat in the event of a boiler breakdown etc.

However, I am concerned about the health implications that they have and worry a lot about my children’s health in the future due to them.
So Much as I’d love one, I will probably never have one.

I went into White Company the other day to look at their candles. There was one for autumn which smelled so much of burning wood and smoke that I felt quite sick from the smell.
The thought of smelling something similar a lot more from all the wood stoves around was yuk.

There’s now plenty of scientific evidence unfiltered particulate pollution caused by these burners are highly toxic and detrimental to our health. I think in years to come they will be seen, rightly, as worse than smoking. It’s not something I’d want anyone to be exposed to long term, especially children.

To quote one website below -

When wood is burned, even in newer certified wood stoves, it creates localized particulate pollution hot spots and releases surprisingly high levels of harmful toxins such as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), benzene and dioxins into our environment. Wood smoke shares many of the same toxic chemical compounds as tobacco smoke, but evidence suggests it may be even more harmful.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/16/home-wood-burning-biggest-cause-particle-pollution-fires

www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/wood-stoves-produce-three-times-more-pm25-pollution-than-traffic/ar-BB1dJwTe

woodsmokepollution.org/wood-stoves.html

I can’t understand why politicians are still trying to highlight car pollution when these burners are now responsible for 3X the particulate pollution of all road traffic.

I actually thought they were going to be banned in higher populated areas 🤔 they are pretty bad for the environment.
We bought a house with one but we've never used it.

We had one when we lived in a "very rural" village with no central heating. It was rubbish but that may have been our technique. Now we're back in civilisation with central heating we have an open fire which we use very occasionally, using smokeless fuel. We do have a stock of kiln dried logs for "emergencies" but they burn so well we'd be bankrupt if we had to rely on them!

I was very surprised when BIL and SIL who live in the same town recently had a wood burner installed.

We live in a big city and we have one in our current house and love it.
Will be installing one in the house we’ve just bought too. I don’t need to justify it.

You can get stoves with filters and catalytic converters in them now. That's not yet required by law, but maybe that will be a future way forward for regulation? Seems like it would reduce the impact of them.

That article says that air pollution has significantly reduced since 2010, so it doesn't seem like this is a growing problem really.

@Asdf12345

We have two open fires we burn exclusively house coal on which I wouldn’t be without.

I’ve got bad news for you about house coal….

If you buy proper smokeless fuel it’s not that cheap to run a wood burner is it? I don’t have one but it’s never appeared to be particularly cheap unless you forage fuel for it (and in many cases that ends up with some burning of unsuitable fuel!).

YANBU I have an open fire which is used daily for about 2 months a year but I'm not in the UK my house has no gas supply at all or electric heating and the electricity goes off regularly for 12+ hours at a time. I'm also semi rural.
However if i lived in the UK where most houses have radiators, a gas supply and reliable electricity I would 100% not have one.

@Loveshelly

I think the positives out weigh the negatives for fires in general. I spend a lot of time camping and will only go to places that allow fires. Learning to cook on one as a child. We had a wood burner as a child it was so amazing The hearth is the heart of the home.

Really of all the things to worry about in terms of the environment this isn’t it. A few people having something nice in their home.

This is the most moronic response I've read on this, read the fucking science.

When we lived in town (a terrace, definitely not a rich area, quite poor really) our only heating option was an open fire with a backboiler for our heating and hot water - that was only 3 years ago.

Now we live rural again and have oil or a wood burner to choose from

The idea that town's and villages are all connected to the gas supply is hilarious to me. It shows a big ignorance to the living standards a large population have to exist in.

@RussianSpy101

We live in a big city and we have one in our current house and love it. Will be installing one in the house we’ve just bought too. I don’t need to justify it.

You do, sort of. To your neighbours and their kids and your kids and their offspring. But yeah, enjoy your nice burn up.