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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Would you join a terrorist organisation to avoid splitting up your family?

154 replies

HeartsAndClubs · 07/10/2021 11:22

Rhetorical question obviously.

Islamic State mother Nicole Jack says 'don't sweep us under carpet' www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58814804

This woman is bleating on about how she and her children should be allowed to return to the UK, and says openly that the only reason she joined ISIS was because her husband did and she didn’t want to split up her family.

This wasn’t a teenager who some might argue could have been groomed, this was a mother of 4, a grown woman, who made a conscious choice to put the ISIS ideology before the welfare of her children, and now she feels she deserves sympathy.

Surely if splitting up her family had been the only reason, she would have moved on after his death, rather than marrying another terrorist?

And surely saying that she hasn’t seen a beheading doesn’t mean she doesn’t know that they happen?

I just can’t imagine on what planet someone who is of moral thinking would actually be so desperate to keep their family together that they would join isis to do it.

Obviously she clearly didn’t do it for that reason. Obviously she believes in what ISIS stands for, but thinks she can pull that sympathy card now.

If anything I think the children could be brought back and placed in care here to get them away from her.

OP posts:
Pythonista · 07/10/2021 21:25

@Stompythedinosaur

I think it is fair to say that a mother who isn't able to resist their husband's wish to take the family to a dangerous war zone is probably not in the same mental space as I have the luck to be.

When I see a mother who isn't able to resist their partner to keep their dc safe, I generally assume their life experience includes abuse and trauma.

It's massively arrogant for those of us who have had better life experiences to assume the reason we can make good choices is because we are better people. We probably aren't, just luckier.

I feel sorry for these women mostly. I think our government should at the least allow the dc to return to live with their grandparents.

But that assumes that women aren't responsible for their actions
Stompythedinosaur · 07/10/2021 21:29

Pythonista I think she is probably responsible for her actions, the same as mothers in the UK who expose their dc to abusive homes are still responsible for their actions. I just think it is not a totally black and white issue, because we are all the products of the lives we have lived. So I have some compassion for her, and I have tons of compassion for those dc, who aren't in any way to blame imo.

I'm on the fence about whether the women should be allowed back, but I think the dc definitely should be.

Fatya · 07/10/2021 21:31

White supremacists
Joining a white ISIS

Equals the assumption that everyone who dares disagree with you is white
And? If someone has a basis other than racism for why the children should be abandoned there, I'd love to hear it.

FWIW I'm unwilling to entertain "well their better off in a refugee camp in a war zone than in the UK care home" as a genuine argument.

Fatya · 07/10/2021 21:33

Notwithstanding, of course, that the children likely wouldn't go into the care system as they have family in the uk...

fashionSOS · 07/10/2021 21:33

I'd take the kids back, because it's really unfair to judge people for the actions of their parents. However, I'm not sure we could do that legally - splitting up a family?

If she was a decent mother, she'd plead for the UK to take her kids without her, seeing as we don't want her. Isn't that what good mums do - put their children's welfare above their own?

Biancadelrioisback · 07/10/2021 21:34

It feels very much like in the future we'll be allowed to kick people out of the country who commit certain crimes. We are currently housing some absolute monsters in our prisons who's personal crimes are horrendous. But we don't. Because they are citizens.

Original poster
HeartsAndClubs · 07/10/2021 21:35

But the children are allowed back, she’s the one refusing to let them come back.

If she actually cared for her children she would let them come back, even if that was without her.

As for women in these situations having been through abuse and deserving of sympathy, how much sympathy does Baby P’s mother deserve? Any other mother who stands by and watches harm come to her children?

I sympathise with a woman who is in an abusive relationship and doesn’t/can’t leave. But my sympathy disappears the instant she allows harm to come to her children.

Social services usually give ultimatums to these parents. Leave your abusive partner or lose your children. Time and time and time again they choose their abusive partner. No sympathy then if the children are removed.

OP posts:
Pythonista · 07/10/2021 21:36

I haven't seen the photos. I have no idea what the mother or her children look like. It's irrelevant.

I am judging her by her actions.

Luckily people don't have to be able to justify an argument you will entertain so that's nice.

And to be fair, assuming everyone is a white supremacist makes your opinions completely irrelevant.

Missmissmiiiiiiiiisss · 07/10/2021 21:38

@Feelslikealot

She's a British citizen and so are her children. Bring her back to face justice for whatever crime she's committed (what crime has she committed just out of interest?) And keep an eye on them but don't leave her children languishing in a refugee camp. Surely they're more at risk of being radicalised in the camp than they are here? All they're doing is creating more isis brides.

Can't help but think if they were white they wouldn't have been left there.

This. 100% Sickens me to think of British children in those conditions. We believe in democracy, in the rule of law and in justice through the courts. When we mess with that we lose all moral high ground in my view.
Pythonista · 07/10/2021 21:40

Doesn't matter what colour they are - the situation is the same.

StoneofDestiny · 07/10/2021 21:41

This woman has been able to return her children to the UK where her mother still lives. She is refusing to allow them to return. It does suggest she is putting herself before her children - just as she did when she left to join ISIS and married 2 ISIS fighters.

Biancadelrioisback · 07/10/2021 21:41

@HeartsAndClubs

But the children are allowed back, she’s the one refusing to let them come back.

If she actually cared for her children she would let them come back, even if that was without her.

As for women in these situations having been through abuse and deserving of sympathy, how much sympathy does Baby P’s mother deserve? Any other mother who stands by and watches harm come to her children?

I sympathise with a woman who is in an abusive relationship and doesn’t/can’t leave. But my sympathy disappears the instant she allows harm to come to her children.

Social services usually give ultimatums to these parents. Leave your abusive partner or lose your children. Time and time and time again they choose their abusive partner. No sympathy then if the children are removed.

Okay, but if we as a country cared about British citizens being in that sort of environment, surely we should allow her back too in order to get them back to safety and deal with her crimes?
JollyAndBright · 07/10/2021 21:42

Her British citizenship has been revoked, she has Trinidadian citizenship.

She has refused a potential offer to bring her children back to the uk, so she cares more about herself than she does about them.

She and the rest of the 30+ woman who used to have British citizenship made their choice when they left the uk to join a terrorist organisation.

Fatya · 07/10/2021 21:43

But the children are allowed back, she’s the one refusing to let them come back.
So I understand, but some posters on here disagree and say the kids should be left there, and/or that they have no sympathy for the children.

Pythonista · 07/10/2021 21:43

@Fatya

But the children are allowed back, she’s the one refusing to let them come back. So I understand, but some posters on here disagree and say the kids should be left there, and/or that they have no sympathy for the children.
People have different opinions - shock horror
MushMonster · 07/10/2021 21:54

Fatya, I really think she should send her children to be cared for by her mother in the UK.
Then sort her own issues re coming back to UK, facing prison or other, so she can be re-united in future.
I would not think twice if they were my children. I would not want them in a refugee camp, versus a safe and warm home with my own mother, in UK.
I have not read the full thread, but I have not spotted anyone saying that they do not want the children back in UK.
I seriously think this people are not fit to care for children, and I would not think twice to remove them from their care and repatriate them. These people are not in the frame of mind to care for anyone, not even themselves!

Bloodypunkrockers · 07/10/2021 21:59

@Fatya

What exactly does your last sentence mean? That I suspect someone who cant muster an ounce of sympathy for the children in this situation is likely a white supremacist.
Pathetic.

I don't even know, or care, what colour they are

How the fuck is that relevant?

Fatya · 07/10/2021 22:15

I am judging her by her actions.

Luckily people don't have to be able to justify an argument you will entertain so that's nice.
I havent argued with anyone passing judgment on her, I've argued with people passing judgment on her children.

As well you know.

Pythonista · 07/10/2021 22:19

And you have passed judgement on anyone without the requisite amount of empathy for the children by calling them white supremacists, despite some of them (myself included) not knowing their ethnicity and (gasp!) some of them possibly being people of colour.

As well you know.

Pythonista · 07/10/2021 22:20

And fwiw I am autistic and struggle with empathy even for people I know and care about. But crack on with the judgement, by all means

Fatya · 07/10/2021 22:24

Fatya, I really think she should send her children to be cared for by her mother in the UK.
So do I.

I have not read the full thread, but I have not spotted anyone saying that they do not want the children back in UK.
Then maybe read the thread.

Page 1 - "They want to stick together then let them. They can all stay there. Not our problem"

Also page 1 - "She should never be allowed back, she and her children have to live with the choices she made."

Page 2 - "She chose to take her children into this environment. Her responsibility. Let her bear the guilt if anything happens to them (which I hope it won't). They will be indoctrinated into her way of thinking and no amount of help is going to stop that."

Page 3 - "She made her choice leave her where she is . Let’s not forget she / her husband whoever aligned themselves with an organisation who kill innocent people. I have absolutely no sympathy for her or her family."

Fatya · 07/10/2021 22:25

And you have passed judgement on anyone without the requisite amount of empathy for the children by calling them white supremacists
Yes, I happily pass judgement on anyone who things a 7 year old child should be punished for the crimes of their mother.

Pythonista · 07/10/2021 22:28

By all means do so, but it's a shame you lack the imagination to realise that it might not be race related.

Pythonista · 07/10/2021 22:29

Judge people for lack of empathy if you must.

Just like we will judge you for assuming it is coming from a load of white supremacists

Pythonista · 07/10/2021 22:31

I wonder if you have empathy for the children who have been left without mothers or fathers or brothers or sisters due to the actions of terrorists?