Infidelity is abusive. AIBU?

[Infidelitydiscussion]

Given that cheating on your spouse/partner often includes gaslighting, causing emotional trauma and putting them at risk of sexually transmitted diseases - personally I would consider cheating to be abusive.

AIBU?

If you don't like the contract don't sign it.

I wouldn't. But what then of those who want to protect/be protected by the contract, as they intend to be child raisers, but don't want to pass their bodily and sexual autonomy to the state?

The point is that it would be an utterly shit and amoral, repressive contract, but leave no better option for those whose contribution to a marriage isn't financial.

Saying "don't like it, don't sign it" doesn't address this. Nor does it address abuse victims who find solace elsewhere, or any of the other billion problems with criminalising consensual adult sex.

@PicsInRed

Like many abusive behaviours, the act of cheating is often part of a pattern of intentionally abusive, controlling, punishing and crazy making behaviour. Lundy Bancroft covers this type in his book on domestic abuse, "Why Does He Do That". YANBU.

How is 'often' defined? A lot of affairs happen by chance - because people settle and meet someone more suitable. Or get bored. Either way their main intention isn't to hurt thier partner but that's a side effect It's crap behaviour but to compare it to abuse (which is delibrate cruelty to a target) is hyperbole. If there's a pattern then it's cheating which is part of the abusive pattern. Not the other way around!

Anybody who wants an ex partner punished by a third party for an affair is the abuser.

I wonder if all these "oh, be nice" types would be so forgiving if the other party to any other contract decided to tear it up unilaterally? No, they'd lawyer up and head to court

They do lawyer up and head to court, divorce is a legal remedy for infidelity - not everyone chooses to divorce, but the option is there. To criminalise consensual relationships is incredibly regressive and open to abuse. Adultery is painful and life changing, but to call it abuse is disrespectful to those people who live in truly controlling, violent, abusive relationships. It minimises the experience of, usually, women who live in fear and terror of what their, usually, male partner inflicts on them and the ongoing daily lived trauma they experience.

Some people who have affairs are also abusive, some are not, to criminalise human relationships is a very dangerous path to go down.

I had to have a thorough round of invasive STI checks as ExH would disclose the nature of his affair. It’s rather miserable to be having a cervical swab because your husband has moved in with his colleague and they have a ‘right to privacy’

I felt utterly violated when I realised he’d been having sex with us both in the same weeks. I wouldn’t have consented to that sex if id known he’d been having sex with someone else.

I’m not sure that any punishment is appropriate but would be interested to see anything that offered protections for the party that didn’t breach the marriage contract. That said- you can only divorce on the grounds of adulterous if the other party admits it or you have evidence (usually a dna test from a child) so it’s pretty irrelevant for most cases.

Holding differing ideas about fidelity within a relationship than your spouse is not abusive.
It is painful to learn or experience but not abusive.

If we spoke more freely about sex and healthy relationships we would be able to speak about what we expect or might need to be happy in the long term.
Often men and women lie about their wants, needs and their views on monogamy. As they have no skills to negotiate a way through or accept how to part while upholding each other’s dignity it always ends in lying.

I know women and men who love their husband or wife but often have sex outside their marriage. I know more who occasionally have done so. They would rather be honest but know doing so would end their family and relationship with the person they love.
We have such weird ideas that monogamous equals harmonious.

If you don't like the contract don't sign it. Don't marry if you intend to have a one sided open marriage. If you want an open marriage, do it with a partner who is also living that lifestyle.

This is mad, the majority of people who have affairs don't go into marriages already planning to cheat. They are not looking for open marriages. Some are people who are always ready to mistreat their partners, but the majority will be normal people who didn't even think they'd do such a thing themselves, until they do.

PP is right to say no one would marry if this were the case, it wouldn't be worth the risk for anybody. And as they say, women would be disproportionately impacted because they wouldn't have the legal protection marriage offers yet would still likely be impacted most by having children.

@RonaldMcDonald no holding different ideas isn’t abusive. Saying it had a great night last night at Shelley’s leaving do and I couldn’t believe how well me & Jess hit it off- I couldn’t keep my hands off her when we got back to hers!’ Is quite different to saying ‘I couldn’t get a cab’ though, isn’t it. That’s intentionally hiding your beliefs.

Yes but is it abusive? If you take the view that telling the truth would end the marriage, so you lie instead, is it abusive?

“Your mum is always welcome here”
“I don’t know how we’ve got a £3k credit card bill”
“No, I’ve not been playing Xbox all day (again)”
“No payrise again this year, we’ll need to tighten our belts again”

There are lots of potentially relationship ending lies told in relationships. The marriage vows encompass much more than infidelity yet that’s the one people focus on and, on this thread, would like to see teemed abuse and criminalised.

I’d be interested in the thoughts about leaving someone because of financial problems (for richer or poorer), or because they can no longer cope with their spouses poor mental health (in sickness and in health) - we understand people have their limits and failings which result in the breaking of the marriage contract, we don’t consider that abuse or seek to criminalise it.

There are lots of potentially relationship ending lies told in relationships. The marriage vows encompass much more than infidelity yet that’s the one people focus on and, on this thread, would like to see teemed abuse and criminalised.

Yep.

An affair isn't always the worst thing a person can do, or the worst thing to be done in a marriage.

There's a poster somewhere whose ex-husband assaulted and attacked her, said filthy things to her and threatened her animals. She had an affair and that was it, she was the bad guy forever in the eyes of him and his family. Now she should be fined or imprisoned too? I bet he'd love that.

My ex had a long-standing affair with my best friend. They both lied over and over, and when I found out, I was absolutely destroyed.
But no, it wasn't abuse.

If you think an affair will mess up the kids, what will a parent in prison for it do to them?

It’s bloody awful but it’s not abusive IMO. Not if the criteria you are using is causing emotional trauma. Lots of things can cause that.

Leaving a partner you don’t love anymore can cause emotional trauma if they don’t want the relationship to end, are people supposed to live unhappily for the rest of their lives or risk being labelled an abuser?

The issue of putting a partner at risk of and std is a separate problem. I think most of us would agree that an emotional affair is still an affair. And that it’s still an affair if the marriage is sexless but otherwise happy and settled. Affairs can still happen and be just as damaging even when there’s no risk of STD, so that can’t be used as a reason to call affairs abusive.

Abuse is illegal. Having an affair should not be considered illegal.

@DrSbaitso

If actually having an affair is inherently abusive, then presumably we need legal protection against it. Can we really make it an offence in law?

I think it should be. You could catch anything, unknowingly. If a person in a relationship for 10 years, no sexual protection caught HIV from a deceitful, cheating partner would that not be a crime? I can't see how it couldn't be!

It’s not easily defined yes or no but I lean more towards yes.
Also it’s just gross. It takes away your partner’s informed consent.

I have a very low opinion of cheating and cheaters. Honestly after being cheated on by my ex I’m unsure if I’ll ever trust someone the same way again. Which is sad.

If a person in a relationship for 10 years, no sexual protection caught HIV from a deceitful, cheating partner would that not be a crime? I can't see how it couldn't be!

I wonder if this could be a crime in terms of bodily harm? Don't know if that has ever been tested and whether the perpetrator would be seen to have adequate mens rea or not. It is reckless behaviour, but not necessarily malicious.

However, the crime still would not be the infidelity itself.

I agree that some of the accompanying behaviour that surround an affair may be abusive but the end of a relationship is almost always going to cause upset and distress to one party but that doesn't necessarily mean the other person (who us choosing to end the relationship for whatever reason) is abusive

Sometimes it is necessary to end a relationship and it is unfair on the person who wants out to suggest that they are an abuser for putting themself first

I'm sure the majority of people have dumped someone or been dumped at some point in their life but that doesn't mean we are all abusers and/or victims

There's perhaps a case to be made for transmitting an STD as a form of ABH or GBH, but that would be the transmission of disease as an offence, not having an affair. Stay clean, or don't do anything that could transmit the disease, and you'd be fine.

Although knowing you could get a criminal prosecution for it might make you less inclined to tell the truth if you get found out, or to ever confess.

I don't think it's per se abusive. There are many potential behaviours surrounding it that could be abusive.

Oh please. Meanwhile back in the real world life, people and situations aren’t black and white.

Thing is, other people are not our possessions or our slaves, regardless of their marital or relationship status. They retain bodily autonomy and, in the end, the right to do or not do what they choose with their bodies. Criminalising that would be insane.

Sexual jealousy or betrayal feels awful for most people, but much of that is because it touches on deep and rather childlike emotions. I can't see that the law/state should be involved in such things at all.

@Theoldprospector

Anybody who wants an ex partner punished by a third party for an affair is the abuser.

I agree with this. Affairs are hurtful but we don’t own people. It’s not abuse.

[quote 5thnonblonde]@RonaldMcDonald no holding different ideas isn’t abusive. Saying it had a great night last night at Shelley’s leaving do and I couldn’t believe how well me & Jess hit it off- I couldn’t keep my hands off her when we got back to hers!’ Is quite different to saying ‘I couldn’t get a cab’ though, isn’t it. That’s intentionally hiding your beliefs.[/quote]
Abuse needs an element of power and control.

Simply having sex with another person and lying, often to not upset your partner, is not ideal morally but it is not abusive.
Being economical with the truth or lying is not abusive.

I find trying to place infidelity as abuse to be distasteful and quite wrong
I’ve been in the face or abuse and infidelity.
One was terrifying the other sad and shamefilled. They weren’t close to the same imo.

@HarrietsChariot

It's abusive in the sense that all relationships are abusive, both partners abuse the other to a lesser or greater extent. I've never had a relationship (that lasted) where I didn't have my personal freedom limited to some extent, nor did I not limit the freedom of my partner. That's what a relationship is, a compromise between what's best for the two individuals and what's best for the couple combined.

No. That's not what an abusive relationship is.

I don’t think it is in and of itself. It might come hand in hand with abusive behaviours but I think there’s a distinction.