to ask if you would carry?

[bellaweir]

After what's happened with Sarah Everard and Sabina Nessa this past week I was chatting to my mum about being safe outside.

We ended up down a rabbit hole of American women carrying guns/pepper spray/tasers for their own safety and I wanted a wider opinion on it.

If it were legal in the uk to carry something for your own protection would you?

Actually on further reading yes illegal www.nfps.info/is-a-kubotan-an-offensive-weapon/

However the flat ones aren't really the same as the ones discussed

Deep heat sprayed into the face of an attacker acts very similar to CS gas and is totally legal to carry. 😜

The chances of a woman being murdered by a stranger are tiny. It’s why it’s always a big news story. Sadly women being killed by men they know isn’t uncommon though.

I’m pretty sure that men are more in danger of violence from strangers. Usually other men (of course).

Personally while I use common sense I don’t live in fear. I’m much more worried about an idiot driver having a head on collision with me and how safe my car is.

@stevalnamechanger

Actually on further reading yes illegal www.nfps.info/is-a-kubotan-an-offensive-weapon/

However the flat ones aren't really the same as the ones discussed

That’s still the same problem - it’s made and sold as a kubotan, even if sold as ‘self defence keyring’ it would still classify as a weapon

Kubotans themselves are optimised for a good grip and a pressure point.

If you know how to use one then you can do pretty much the same thing with an object that you happen to have to hand

Pepper spray, perhaps yes.

I wouldn’t carry a knife or gun. I think the more guns on the streets the bigger the problem we’ll have with them.

You really have to know how to use gun - or knife I guess - for it to contribute to your safely. The likelihood is if most of us took one out, it could be used against us by a stronger attacker, who could over power us.

I've taught self defence and martial arts for a good few years.

Things I've seen on this thread that have a chance of working.

Firstly the shin kick/foot stomp, yep, all day long. Incredibly painful place to be hit and easily accessible ,it will hopefully give you those few seconds you need to run. Especially good if you have hard shoes on.

A bright flashlight (the Fluxon from alpkit is ideal) can be used to temporarily blind or be used as a kubotan (just hold it in a closed fist and strike with it, no real training needed)

Deep heat as pepper spray is a new one on me, I worry it is as likely to get you as your attacker, especially in the wind.

And what wouldn't.

Keys through your fingers... just no. Try it, then hit a punch bag hard enough to do damage to it. See how much you just hurt yourself without doing almost anything. If you're going to use keys (as a bunch) hold them in an open palm and slap but really they are pretty useless for self defence.

I used to do keys in one hand lit fag in the other when I was young!

Never had any trouble whatsoever in my reckless youth. Yes I was lucky but having said that. Was I? Or is that what I'm conditioned to say?

I must have walked drunkenly home from tube 100s of times. Gone onto places with people I didn't know at all etc. I was very reckless I had my reasons.

All the things that men have done have been when according to the 'rules to keep yourself safe' I was not doing anything 'wrong'. Or it was men I knew well and trusted.

Yes women and girls get strange men doing street harrassment, following, yelling explicit/ abusive things, showing you their dick in the park/ on the tube etc. All the time. Generally in situations that are not on the 'women take care' list.

I suppose my big question is. One that I've thought about for years.

Why this massive focus on.

Women and girls being attacked by total strangers and the attacks being really serious -rape, murder.

And that focus comes with a list as long as your arm of things we are supposed to do to 'protect ourselves'. Such a long list that if anything does happen likelihood is she did something wrong. Always did something wrong.

But while this is horrific it's much less common than loads of things. Including women being murdered, raped, girls being groomed and raped, sexual assault, etc etc.

And the advice to look after friends not get hammered etc applies to men as well who get attacked robbed etc in large numbers.

So why is it.

Strange man. Women you need to be alert as you are constantly potential prey.
Serious sex offence.
Look after yourself in specific situations and ways that seem to revolve around going out at night and having a good time / being carefree and independent.

Anyone else feel like this?

It's usually just me :)

I would possibly carry pepper spray but knowing my luck would spray it and the wind would blow it back in my eyes.
Think i would go more down the self-defense class route. We had one at work once and the teacher was really good at showing you how to move with confidence to try and avoid getting attacked in the first place. Not that it helped poor Sarah.

Think i should probably do a proper class as i have realised i am quite weak and non-agressive physically. We probably all should.

Don't want to live in fear though. Don't we still need to reclaim the streets? Attacks are surely still very rare???

Reclaim the night in UK started in the 70s in response to the police advice while the Yorkshire ripper was at large.

When stuff about him is in telly or in the papers etc.

The reaction of women, that instigated the first march here. Is IME never mentioned.

It's all about police stay indoors and women being scared.

Interesting isn't it. That narrative.

'Marches in Leeds in 1977
The first Reclaim the Night protests took place in Leeds on 12 November 1977.[6][7] The marches were in part a response to the "Yorkshire Ripper" murders, and the police response which instructed women to stay out of public spaces after dark.

...

Women carried signs such as "No Curfew on Women - Curfew on Men.'

Yes less common than someone you know, partner etc.

But still not that uncommon exactly.

Why the focus on the much less likely rape/ murder by a stranger. Than the 2/ 3 women a week killed by men they knew.

Why no interest in all the other stuff male strangers do?

It bothers me.

Self defence great for confidence fitness etc.

If a woman gets away he just gets another one.

Great for the first I mean obviously fight escape.

But in the end it doesn't reduce the overall situation iyswim.

When I say less focus I'm not thinking of women but press, police, posters for safety etc etc.

she thought she was being arrested by a policeman.

Because she WAS being arrested by a policeman. The CCTV shows his hand move to his chest and the police deduce that he was showing her his warrant card.

The Met did not dismiss Wayne Cousins until 16 July, after he pleaded guilty to the kidnap and rape of Sarah (he did so on 8 June) and after he pled guilty to her murder (9 July).

We know now it was a false arrest. She did not.

The met are widely known for. Having zero tolerance to anything other than total compliance.

Men who approach you randomly after dark etc. Are automatically seen as a risk by women.

Men almost always are bigger stronger faster and more violent than women.

We don't know what he said. What she said. I find the idea she was oh yes Mr plain clothes met officer you seem kosher and there's nothing odd about the fact you want to nick me and take me off to ..police station. Yes that's totally not weird as fuck.

This assumption she went quietly and bought his story comes from where exactly?

The sad fact is.

When a woman or girl is decided as the target. That's that. I know that's really uncomfortable. But it's true.

Esp with couzens.

Once he had decided. If she got away good chance she would call police then he's fucked.

It was game over as soon as she had the bad luck of coming into the path of a predator who saw his opportunity.

Realistically. What could she do? Run? He is faster. He is in control. Fight? He's bigger and stronger and trained....

The focus needs to be on the predatory men.
And in this case the fucking total failure of the met to get him stopped before he did this.

But as ever.
Most threads on here. The response from various politicians. The 'advice' from Scotland yard.

Has no mention of doing something about dodgy men who are reported, improving checks etc etc.

And all. Well. Flag down a bus. Don't be so naive. Tell officers to let you make a call / run away (well that means a disproportionately violent response from the met and resisting arrest...). Attain an encyclopedic knowledge of the law. Etc etc.

No.

We already have a lengthy rulebook that guarantees pretty much any woman or girl attacked did something 'wrong'.

Fuck that.

She did nothing wrong. At all.

A dangerous man decided to target her. And really. That was that.

I would carry pepper spray if it were legal. I'd like it to be legal for women to carry pepper spray but not men. I know that's probably not workable but that's my ideal.

Where I live now I always carry a cane (a rattan one like they used to cane kids with in school). Its for fending off wildlife and I feel a lot safer walking past monkeys and stray dogs if I'm carrying it. It doesn't make me feel any safer from people though. I know that I wouldn't be able to incapacitate a man with it for long enough for me to make an escape. He'd either grab the cane as I swung at him or he'd just ignore/dodge any blows. Pepper spray I think gives you more of a chance to get away as the attacker would be unable to see properly. Plus you can use it at a bit more of a distance.

This assumption she went quietly and bought his story comes from where exactly?

The CCTV shown in court at the sentencing.

One of my exes ran a popular Freestyle Karate based martial arts school and I learned a lot from him. He was always honest about self defence for women though. Rule number one was always RUN away if you can and make as much noise as possible. Never get into the car even if there's a knife in your back as giving your attacker the advantage of isolating you is far worse. Unless you are military trained or confident in your ability to fight, you will find most defence/attack training will vanish in the face of genuine terror and shock that a person wants to seriously harm (potentially kill) you. You absolutely need to switch into survival mode which means being as non human and feral as possible. This involves basically acting crazy, it's worked very well for many women I've spoken to; if you're seriously cornered with no other options then scream, laugh, talk gibberish and make yourself puke over him and you and basically make yourself an utterly confusing and unpleasant prospect. There are other tricks but the problem is I don't want the wrong people to know them. Ask your local self defence school about 'Bourne Identity' training for women.

@Mudday.
I probably worded my response badly but you have articulated what I meant.

In order for a gun to be useful it would need to be very close to hand for immediate use - so loaded and in your handbag/pocket for example. Given most small children will be in your bag in seconds this is a terrible idea. I don't want to be raped, but I would actually be more upset if my toddler shot himself/me. And that does happen in America with alarming regularity. Also I am very accident prone so the chances of me accidentally shooting myself while rummaging in my handbag for a werthers are higher than you'd think.
But pepper spray should be legal (or maybe something you can apply for a license for). It is certainly mad that its classed as a firearm.

I also did self defence and like a previous poster said, the most important thing is to create space and then run. Basically all self defence (making someone let go of your hands, kneeing them in the balls) is so that you can then run away.
It is complicated though, because if someone wants your handbag and you give it to them you are also creating space, and giving yourself a chance to leg it. If someone wants to rape you, the advice used to be its safer to let them than fight back - but the problem is, you are then physically less able to get away - so you have the choice of: fight back and risk turning a rapist into a murderer, or not fighting back and making it easier for them to murder you if they want. So there is no right or wrong course of action - but if you do fight back really go for it and then run.

And I agree the acting crazy advice is good - the problem is that that wouldnt have worked with WC - Acting crazy when being arrested is just going to justify to any observers that you are the problem.
Thats whats so horrifying about the case - it is impossible to imagine anything she could have reasonably done to protect herself (and I think psychologically that is a common response to hearing about terrible things. Even though it can tip into victim blaming)

Walking the dog I carry a 6 D-cell Maglite on a belt -

www.amazon.co.uk/Maglite-Blister-Cell-Flashlight-Black/dp/B000056BME?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

When I used to live in Central London I was stopped a number of times, late at night, by Met officers but there was never a problem with carrying a torch.

I’m American and I have pepper spray in my car, backpack, purse, at work, at home in the bedroom (dh is often out of town), in my camping backpack. I’m so glad it’s legal here. I do not carry a gun but I’ve been tempted. I have a taser like thing but I never remember to charge it! I watch too many criminal shows though.

In my everyday carry, I like to carry a knife and Flashlight for life surviving things, Flashlights also help to easily heat up on the eyes.