To think it’s unfair single-sex schools aren’t an option for many (perhaps even most)?

[patienceandprudence]

I have one single sex state school (and in fact there is only one private) in my county. It is in the county town, which we are not in the catchment for. It would take an hour and half to get to by public transport anyway.

Since it has been proven many times over that girls do better in single sex schools, why on earth aren’t there more options for those of us not in 11+ counties? I think it’s a great shame, and it doesn’t seem to be a thing that’s even being thought about.

Best mathematicians in my DC's state comp were a mix. But in DD's year they happened to be girls and tbh no one rated maths or physics as boys' subjects. Or English as a girls' subject. In fact my boy went on to study English and my girl to study maths. Neither were statistical out-liers.

Agree that the Diamond Model looks to be a good compromise. A friend of ours has sent her son to a local private school which operates the Diamond Model. I looked at the school website and they operate it like this:

Reception to Year 4 - fully co-ed
Year 5 & 6 - “most” classes and all clubs co-ed (they don’t specify)
Year 7 & 8 - all teaching classes except Languages single sex
Year 9 to Year 11 - Maths, English, Science and Sport single sex, everything else co-ed
Sixth Form - fully co-ed

I attended a single sex school from the age of 11-14, it was a council run school and despite getting good exam results, due to budget issues, ended up being merged with the local (failing) boys school when I went into Y10. It was a disaster for all concerned.

While the girls go to their lovely boy-free schools... What is meant to happen for the boys?

How on earth are we going to address male entitlement and abuse by putting boys all together, to perpetuate these ideas of girls as 'other' and boys as dangerous, while making the vulnerable boys even more so?

For all the people saying 'well, I just live in the real world, too many boys are dangerous and girls need protection'... That is the same argument still sometimes used in my home country to keep women out of education. It's a crap argument.

@OverTheRubicon

While the girls go to their lovely boy-free schools... What is meant to happen for the boys?

How on earth are we going to address male entitlement and abuse by putting boys all together, to perpetuate these ideas of girls as 'other' and boys as dangerous, while making the vulnerable boys even more so?

For all the people saying 'well, I just live in the real world, too many boys are dangerous and girls need protection'... That is the same argument still sometimes used in my home country to keep women out of education. It's a crap argument.

I don't really centre boys in the issue of sexism towards girls, I don't think that's particularly shocking. I'd rather prioritise sparing girls that during their education. The education at boy schools can and should include understanding of the issues surrounding sexism and equality for the sexes, and they can use that time to gain the maturity to appreciate that those things are unacceptable. It's not like they will not know what a girl is, they will no doubt have females in their life in their family and extra curricular activities. They don't need young girls to sacrifice their educational experience for them to practice showing respect with.

@OverTheRubicon

While the girls go to their lovely boy-free schools... What is meant to happen for the boys?

How on earth are we going to address male entitlement and abuse by putting boys all together, to perpetuate these ideas of girls as 'other' and boys as dangerous, while making the vulnerable boys even more so?

For all the people saying 'well, I just live in the real world, too many boys are dangerous and girls need protection'... That is the same argument still sometimes used in my home country to keep women out of education. It's a crap argument.

Boys go to lovely girl-free schools.

They then turn up at 6th form or higher education with manners and without a sense of entitlement. Yes oddly I was educated with some of these boys and young men plus have them in my own family.

It isn't individual girls job to sacrifice her eduction and future job prospects by being educated in a hostile environment.

I wouldn't send DC to single-sex. Its 21st century and this isn't Saudi Arabia.
OH went to all boys boarding school. Over my dead body my DC would go to anyhting like that.

@CatsArePeople

I wouldn't send DC to single-sex. Its 21st century and this isn't Saudi Arabia. OH went to all boys boarding school. Over my dead body my DC would go to anyhting like that.

Saudi Arabia? I went to an all girl's school (it was the only option in my town) and it was just a perfectly normal school, there just weren't any boys in it.

You won't have single-sex universities or single-sex workplaces. Both sexes need to learn and work and interact with each other. Especially if children don't have opposite sex siblings at home.

@SheldontheWonderSchlong

Totally agree - there should be far more all-girls schools especially as the rates of sexual assaults in schools are ridiculously high. Frankly I view them as necessary to keep our daughters safe.

The Taliban would be proud of you!

The Taliban would be proud of you!

What a bizarre and extreme thing to say.

Briony - thanks for your insightful input in to the debate, although I'm not sure the Taliban have the safety of girls at the front of their minds - maybe you know something we don't.

I'll be sure to look for comparisons when I visit the local girls grammar school on their next open day though.

I think Briony might be making a point that the Taliban 'protects' women from sexual violence by segregating them and that single sex schools are not the answer to protecting our girls.

An extreme comparison though!

Boys go to lovely girl-free schools. They then turn up at 6th form or higher education with manners and without a sense of entitlement. Yes oddly I was educated with some of these boys and young men plus have them in my own family. It isn't individual girls job to sacrifice her eduction and future job prospects by being educated in a hostile environment.

In what way does informing children - by virtue of same sex schools - that their sex separates them into two separate categories, help them to learn more about respect for each other? And how is it also not a hostile environment for the boys, both those who will be even more vulnerable in a more male environment, and those who will be indoctrinated into the standard set of beliefs you get with large groups of young men together, in the current culture.

It's not about sacrificing girls. It will be making their lives worse if we intensify sex segregation.

Can someone tell me how this is so different from: "Some of the new immigrant children arriving in our schools have strong negative beliefs about women, gay people and Christian people, that can result in violence and abuse. As a group they also perform less well academically and make my child distracted and get less attention from the teacher.

I am therefore going to advocate for more schools that cater only those groups, including the many among them who actually have some of the characteristics that will get them picked on.

My sweet Christian child will remain unmolested, and I will pretend to believe that somehow these schools will help increase equality, instead of fomenting inequality and misunderstanding and poor outcomes on a societal level."

There are lots of things that might benefit individual children but lead to worse outcomes on a national level, which is why they shouldn't need to be government funded.

In what way does informing children - by virtue of same sex schools - that their sex separates them into two separate categories, help them to learn more about respect for each other?

I think you are being really obtuse here tbh. Girl and boy's schools already exist and the students don't think it's a punitive measure. I don't think it needs to be mandatory but as an option, it's better than simply banging our heads on the walls and saying "no, you're not different from one another" while they continue to blatantly treat each other as though they are.

Also it's not respect for each other, is it. It's boys respecting girls. It's not a mutual disadvantage.

And how is it also not a hostile environment for the boys, both those who will be even more vulnerable in a more male environment, and those who will be indoctrinated into the standard set of beliefs you get with large groups of young men together, in the current culture.

I'm bemused by this. Why is it that you think having girls there would improve things for boys? Is that you acknowledging that boys are more unpleasant than girls? Seems a bit odd. Girls suffer specific things from boys that other boys do not. They are the victims of the sexist behaviour.

And they can learn about respect for women in the same way they learn about most things in school's - theoretically. They will meet women and girls outside of school. It doesn't HAVE to be during school time, conveniently at the crucial time that leads to worse educational outcomes for girls. Those awful beliefs happen in coed schools anyway, girls have never been able to prevent that.

It's not about sacrificing girls. It will be making their lives worse if we intensify sex segregation.

It's sexism women and girls suffer from, not sex segregation. How can you say with any authority that more single sex school's would make things worse?

Single-sex education "protects girls" just as much as school uniforms are supposed to cancel economic inequality - an outdated practice which exists because of tradition, rather than any practical sense.

It's sexism women and girls suffer from, not sex segregation. How can you say with any authority that more single sex school's would make things worse

BAME children are frequently victimised by white children at school too. Do you think that creating all-BAME and all-white schools would create better outcomes, or risk far worse ones?

BAME children are frequently victimised by white children at school too. Do you think that creating all-BAME and all-white schools would create better outcomes, or risk far worse ones?

Personally I think the two issues are considerably different as the way in which low level stuff is tackled is very different. However, there are lots of schools that are majority BAME students and I don't think that makes for worse outcomes for BAME people.

@OverTheRubicon

It's sexism women and girls suffer from, not sex segregation. How can you say with any authority that more single sex school's would make things worse

BAME children are frequently victimised by white children at school too. Do you think that creating all-BAME and all-white schools would create better outcomes, or risk far worse ones?

Exactly my point - completely agree

@aSofaNearYou majority BAME is not the same as all BAME like all girls/boys as you are suggesting

I think it's very different. For a start racial abuse is a hate crime and should be treated as such by a school, misogyny isn't a hate crime (which is absolutely disgraceful).

@SheldontheWonderSchlong

I think it's very different. For a start racial abuse is a hate crime and should be treated as such by a school, misogyny isn't a hate crime (which is absolutely disgraceful).

Yes, this.

Bame girls are still girls, not part of the dominant sex that numerous studies have shown attract the teachers attention and time, not bigger and stronger and learning to live with teen testosterone or who grow up to be the sex that commit 98% of sex crimes. Some of our private girls schools here are half to majority Asian background, they are just girls like any other, as I’m sure overtherubicon realises. Presumably you don’t want any single second adult spaces either as that would be ostracising men?

@purplecarrot23

I went to a Girls secondary state school and really Liked it! Where I grew up there were only single sex schools available apart from 1 failing co-Ed. I now have a DD and DS, and where we live there are only co-ed state schools which I am struggling with

Sounds exactly like my area

No child should dominate any class. Many girls dominate. Many boys don’t. A skilled teacher deals with it. Those that dint need more training and support.

Seriously hang around outside an all boys school.It’s just laughable such a naive ridiculous idea is being pedalled. You want boys to respect girls more, the last thing you want to do is segregate them and make boys spend their most formative years devoid of female contact. 😂