To think it’s unfair single-sex schools aren’t an option for many (perhaps even most)?

[patienceandprudence]

I have one single sex state school (and in fact there is only one private) in my county. It is in the county town, which we are not in the catchment for. It would take an hour and half to get to by public transport anyway.

Since it has been proven many times over that girls do better in single sex schools, why on earth aren’t there more options for those of us not in 11+ counties? I think it’s a great shame, and it doesn’t seem to be a thing that’s even being thought about.

@shallIswim

I get what mothers of girls are saying about abuse. I have a girl and a boy. But the worst trouble, and the thing that left the longest lasting scars for my DD was the bullying she received from other girls. Awful.

The thing is, the issue of sexism and the issue of general bullying are separate. Of course there is still bullying amongst both sexes, but the sexism girls experience is in addition to that and needs tackling in it's own right.

I had a lovely group of friends at my very wonderful big standard high school. Both lads andcgirls which I wouldn't have hlad at a single sex school.
I had two nale friends at an excellent boys school near me and a female friend at the girls version of the same school.
All three struggled in tbeir release into the world at uni to mix with the opposite sex. All fine now but education is not all about academia.

I went to an all girls school and, while it may have been slightly more beneficial academically than a mixed school, what it didn't do was teach kids how to navigate relationships (whether platonic or romantic/sexual) with the other 50% of the human race. University was a complete eye-opener, and it's fair to say I made quite a few serious (potentially life-changing) mistakes in a very short time. Steep learning curve.

Where we live now also has the 11+ system and DD could have gone to a single or mixed grammar. She was adamant about wanting a mixed school and she's thriving - and also has a much more grounded and sensible attitude towards boys than I did at her age. She's learned how to be assertive, to speak up with confidence and take no nonsense, which I think is priceless.

Here is a collection of studies over the last ten years showing more girls study stem subjects and do better at them in single sex schools. Of course the source is biased being a girls schools association, but I had no luck finding studies saying the opposite on stem and plenty of this type of study in a quick search. Not arguing academia is everything but it is important to me that it be strongly supported in conjunction with developing well rounded children.
www.agsa.org.au/why-a-girls-school-the-research/gender-atypical-subject-selection-statistics/

My first thought was about Ed Hussein saying the roots of him becoming a radicalised extremist was in being sent to a single sex boys school.

I thought about sending DD to a single sex girls school. Decided that it felt like an anorexia pressure-cooker.

What are the statistics comparing achievements from single sex state schools only to single sex co-ed schools?

@lljkk it’s a fair question. Studies 2 and 9 in the list in the article I linked are I think completely done in state schools. I tried to look up % engineering students at Sydney university of technology from private schools but couldn’t see that information, I expect it’s high though whcih would mean the majority of the data is comparing private single schools with private coed schools for that study.
Tricky in my state as I’m not aware of any non selective entry single sex state high schools, but there are probably initiatives with girls classes and similar. Private schools are a mix of single sex and coed.

That’s not to say other studies in the list aren’t state school based, just it isn’t obvious. I have no idea what the Norwegian system is like, and don’t know enough about girls day schools in the uk which is another one of them.

Having been to one myself, I agree they can be a hotbed for vicious woman on woman bullying, and things like eating disorders however much depends on the school and the child.

I sent my DD to a single sex school. The pastoral support is 2nd to none, and they are all over very low level bullying such that it never really gains root. They have plenty of social opportunities with boys, as it's understood it's important they mix. I can honestly say she's absolutely thriving there, but I acknowledge not ever girl would.

The local co-ed in our catchment is failing, with drug/anti-social behavior, and little emphasis on the subjects she's interested in (STEM) so it wasn't right for her. The year she joined secondary there was an incident where a year 7 girl was assaulted at the school by a boy in year 8. This happened during the first 2 weeks of term and I just knew I'd made the right decision.

howevermuch depends on the school and the child.

This.

Plenty of people just don't have a choice where they live anyway. But if they do, I suspect most wouldn't choose a failing single-sex school over a good mixed one, whatever their preference in principle. Not all schools are equal, however much that should be nearer the truth, so you always have ti look at the individual school. Some girls schools might be hotbed of eating disorders and bullying, but not all are like that. What's right for one child may not suit their sibling. That's why it's good to have choice in an area - but where I went to school, there just wasn't the population to support more secondary schools.

The reason why most have closed / amalgamated is that they're not very popular with parents. Most parents (not all parents) would pick a mixed school over a single sex one.

God I would have absolutely hated to be sent to a single sex school, girls at that age are so bitchy and looks obsessed and I think that would just be amplified in a single sex school. Even at my mixed school it was certain groups of girls that were far more intimidating and judgemental than the boys, they were the ones skipping meals and self harming and making it cool, and going out with people much older than them. Mind you those were the days before dick pics and internet porn.

@Tal45

God I would have absolutely hated to be sent to a single sex school, girls at that age are so bitchy and looks obsessed and I think that would just be amplified in a single sex school. Even at my mixed school it was certain groups of girls that were far more intimidating and judgemental than the boys, they were the ones skipping meals and self harming and making it cool, and going out with people much older than them. Mind you those were the days before dick pics and internet porn.

Why on Earth are we allowed to say things like this about girls, yet we have posters on here losing their minds about people discussing sexism from boys?

Also interesting that you blame the girls for going out with people older than them, not the (presumably) older boys. And for self harming and having eating disorders - it's not like they could be unhappy and being raised in a world that makes them think they have to be stick thin and beautiful due to sexism perpetuated by men...

This isn't specific to this thread, but I find the constant sweeping statements that teenage girls are all bitchy and looks obsessed really irritating.

I went to an all girl's school, and I didn't particularly find this to be the case. There was bitchiness, and there was obsession with looks (primarily AFTER mixing with the boys and learning this is how girl's are valued by them but hey ho let's ignore that), but actually no more than I have witnessed from teenage boys, bullying each other over trainers and the like. And that's alongside the aggression, the derision and often violence against anyone that doesn't fit the status quo, the emotional immaturity. Yet nobody ever seems to criticise teenage boys for these things. All the focus is on teenage girls being "bitchy", and sometimes people will say "what about the huge amount of sexual harassment from teenage boys", which is only the tip of the iceberg of their unpleasant behaviour, in reality, and even THAT will have people getting really defensive.

I think this strange cultural assessment that teenage boys are somehow better than teenage girls is really false and part of the problem, tbh.

I don’t think I really knew I had a body in terms of objectifying it at high school (single sex). I don’t recall a single comment or implied comment about my weight ever, and my body was mostly something I played sports with, often not particularly well, and clothes fitted over. Obviously I wanted to look nice sometimes but ‘nice’ wasn’t centred on my thighs and butt and waist and boobs, they were just what they are. There was certainly no pressure on weight and looks, no heavy makeup. I very much want that for my daughter.

Wow I find this thread and some of the comments really depressing. I am a mum of 2 boys.

My impression is that most of the supposed empirical evidence showing that girls do better at single sex schools is pretty shonky.

There are so few single sex comprehensives that you're mostly forced to rely on comparisons involving selective schools, not all of which are equally selective.

My instinct [only] is that single sex is a bad idea. It's a tiny sample, following - from afar - all of the shenanigans at #10 involving Johnson, Carrie, Gove, and Cummings, I couldn't help but feel they might have been more balanced as a group if even one of them had been to a co-ed school.

My cousins went to one and they were incredibly jealous of the fact I went to a mixed school. They still met the boys from the all boys school up the road so it didn’t keep them away from boys. Not sure what the purpose is tbh.

@Tal45

God I would have absolutely hated to be sent to a single sex school, girls at that age are so bitchy and looks obsessed and I think that would just be amplified in a single sex school. Even at my mixed school it was certain groups of girls that were far more intimidating and judgemental than the boys, they were the ones skipping meals and self harming and making it cool, and going out with people much older than them. Mind you those were the days before dick pics and internet porn.

Absolutely the opposite was true in my DD's all girls school. It was a very calm and inclusive environment. DD pitied the girls at local mixed school who clearly felt the need to sex themselves up for school (judging from their dress, makeup and behaviour).

@LST

Wow I find this thread and some of the comments really depressing. I am a mum of 2 boys.

Yes it is utterly depressing how many people are completely unwilling to acknowledge the alarming rates of sexual harassment in schools but happy to denounce teenage girls as total bitches who will somehow be unable to cope with a male or function in society if they go to an all-girls school.

And it's also depressing that no one is acknowledging how terrible it is that boys are being presented this behaviour as the normal way to be with girls and nothing is being done about it.
Basically telling boys this is how you should be and telling girls to accept it.
And basically failing all of our children.

@timeisnotaline

If everyone with a girl who is into maths/science sends them to a girls school, then it perpetuates the problem. My DD and her friends are strong mathematicians, and I suspect her year group, at any rate, do not see maths as a boys' subject That’s not quite how it works. I would have excelled at maths in any class, but some of the other girls who did it with me and were reasonably good but not straight As without trying would have either not done it as it’s too full of boys or done worse then they did because the boys got all the attention. The year group effect you describe is very difficult to obtain in a mixed school. Every boy I knew did maths because boys do to get to university, that was far from the case for girls.

Yes, that’s the point I was making. Those who easily influenced by peers or just good rather than amazing at the subject will rule themselves out. I imagine it’s the same for boys for some subjects (English, Drama?) as it is for girls in Maths / Further Maths / Physics.

A single sex environment, assuming it’s not run 1950s style, just takes away any sense that a subject is for boys or for girls. If it’s in the school, and its a girls school, it’s by definition for girls.

And my experience of single sex girls school was of mutual support and zero tolerance of bullying. Some friendship dramas, but I really don’t recognise the ‘bitchy teenage girl desperate to have a boyfriend’ stereotypes that have been referenced on this thread. I left, for a male dominated course, able to get my voice heard and feeling confident in my opinions - that’s been a lasting gift and has helped me through my whole career. I wasn’t any good good at flirting, but it hasn’t been a problem...

Absolutely the opposite was true in my DD's all girls school. It was a very calm and inclusive environment. DD pitied the girls at local mixed school who clearly felt the need to sex themselves up for school (judging from their dress, makeup and behaviour).

The inclusive attitude didn't extend to anyone who didn't attend the school then

There was bitchiness, and there was obsession with looks (primarily AFTER mixing with the boys and learning this is how girl's are valued by them but hey ho let's ignore that)

Yes, this was my experience at a co-ed secondary. There was plenty of obsession with looks - but when you spend every minute of your school day being appraised and rated on your appearance by boys, and learning that that’s what you’re valued and liked for, then there’s going to be, isn’t there?

When I visited the single sex school I noticed none of the girls were wearing make-up. Their hair was mostly scraped back into a pony tail... they looked natural. In the co-ed, girls were wearing make-up etc. Single sex environments don't breed ''bitchy'' behavior anymore than co-ed ones mitigate it. Some girls will struggle, and it's unhelpful to label them as ''bitches'' or attribute blame for mental health issues. Those who struggle need non-judgmental support & guidance.

We live in a society where girls/women are subjected to escalating levels of harassment, abuse and misogyny from men. It's sad that women also participate in that narrative as is evident on this thread.

My instinct [only] is that single sex is a bad idea. It's a tiny sample, following - from afar - all of the shenanigans at #10 involving Johnson, Carrie, Gove, and Cummings, I couldn't help but feel they might have been more balanced as a group if even one of them had been to a co-ed school.

No, I think their problem is having mixed mostly only with extremely privileged people more than having had a single sex education.

When I visited the single sex school I noticed none of the girls were wearing make-up. Their hair was mostly scraped back into a pony tail... they looked natural. In the co-ed, girls were wearing make-up etc.

Isn't this just down to the school though. Near where I live there's a private Girls school, a private co-ed, a faith co-ed and two floundering co-ed secondary schools.
The pupils from the private schools and the faith school wear correct uniform including no make up. The uniform policies are strict.
The pupils from the other two schools where policies are not enforced wear incorrect uniform make up is worn.