to think that the school nurse shouldn't have sent me this letter...

[emkana]

which has a programme in it how to deal with dd2's "bedwetting" WTF? She doesn't do "bedwetting", she's only 4.4 and still in pull-ups, which I thought was widely accepted as quite normal?

Yurt,it saddens me that we have not yet come up with a model of care that makes it possible to maintain important life skills across multiple settings.
That is something we have to work very har on improving.

Jeez, you really have forgotten that MN is supposed to be about sharing experiences, not a 'DO IT MY WAY' bootcamp, haven't you?

No moondog- its the suggestion that a skill is lost because the parents have got rather a lot on. That is incredibly patronising. I work with ds1's SLD/PMLD school. I've run ABA programmes for 3 years and one of the things we all know is that what ds1 can do is unpredictable. What ABA can teach him is unpredictable. How he can apply what he's learned and for how long is unpredictable. He goes to a great school with very experienced teacher, he gets a home programme but he still loses skills. Often because of sensory issues, or compulsion issues. To suggest that that can be easily stopped if the parents didn't have quite so much on their plates is utterly offensive. If it was that easy I'm sure the school could easily correct the lost skill anyway

Lordy Spider.
Is that fona bide (as they used to say in Minder) or is it something kinky?

tori is right. Vasopressin is produced by the pituary gland IIRC, this is a developmental process over which the child has no control.

Until vasopressin in produced the child will remain wet at night.

Lifting is counter-productive as unless you fully rouse the child you are just teaching them to wee in their sleep.

(I had this with DS1, wet at night until age 7 and a bit, we used the synthetic hormone desmopressin on the recommendation of the Continence Clinic for a short time, which solved the problem)

Neither parent nor child is 'lazy'. The ERIC website here has very useful information

moondog. I like ABA - it's taught ds1 a lot- but really you are sounding a bit over zealous and dare I say it a little naive regarding what it can do. If you read the end of my thread on SN regarding older children with LD's (it should be near the top) there are quite a few posts at the end of the thread about the limitations of ABA from people who have been using it for years.

I don't know Moondog. I really don't. I have deliberatly stopped speculating now as I was getting some worrying imagery popping up.

Mincepiedermama - sorry - don't have an answer to that. I'm just repeating what the GP told me when I whinged that ds1 was still bedwetting at 5. He just reassured me that it's perfectly normal and often runs in families - it's a PHYSICAL issue and has got bugger all to do with anyone's parenting skills, whatever moondog may like to think.

thank you, Reindeer.

Yurt,skills are lost for all sorts of reasons.
And sometimes they are lost (whether children are NT or have SN)because people can't be bothered to maintain them.That is an indisputable fact.

I wasn't aware of the fact that all people who have children with SN have impeccable parenting skills. Some do,some don't in the smae way that parents of children who are NT are sometimes incredibly on the ball and are sometimes quite simple slothful and ill disciplined.

I have to agree with md a bit here. My dd wet her pull ups every night, then when she was 4 I tried her without pull ups. 2 weeks of wetting 1 in 3 nights and she never wet the bed again. I do think pullups can lull a child into false sense of security.

However I can see that with more serious bedwetting probs they are a life saver

ffs

All systems have their limitations Yurt.
Salt does, psychotherapy does,drug regimes do.
ABA certainly does (most salts hate it in fact.)
I will certainly read your thread.I am always interested in what MNers say about MN.It's one of the primary reasons I come on here.

well perhaps you needed to make it clearer in your first post that only some toiletting skills are lost due to poor parents with too much to handle (so they've gone from too much on their plates to slothful and ill disciplined) .

I've just read a post on the thread I directed you to, from someone who has been running an ABA programme for 8 years. Her ds was toilet trained at the normal age (using ABA) but now bedwets. So perhaps its a common problem. There follows an interesting discussion about ABA and its limitations in the real world from people who have to use it 24 hours a day for years.

Really assuming that parents who don't run tight ABA ships at home are slothful and ill disciplined is pretty unhelpful from someone who is meant to be a pro.

About two nights out of seven dd2 will come into our bed at night, and that is one of the reasons why I wouldn't consider not putting her in pull-ups, I really do not want to change our bed in the middle of the night, and where would me, dh and ds sleep then?

And for me it is very important to let dd2 sleep with us if she wants to, as I believe it gives her a feeling of security and comfort that she sometimes needs.

'It is a shame if a child is in nappies who could be in ordinary underwaer.Is that such a controversial thing to say?'

No dear. and doubtless there are cases like that - and more now than in the days before disposables. But I'm afraid your earlier posts didn't really seem to have any understanding of kids who have some problem other than merely lazy parents. Kids who are not SN in any other respect may have bowel and/or bladder problems for which the easy training methods just don't work. As someone who's been there, done that and more or less come out the other side - I know just how hard it can be, and not the sort of thing you can discuss with RL friends, hence the value of supportive MN boards. Yes, advise what worked for you and point out the potential pitfalls of pullups but please don't make mums who feel at danger or drowning in a sea of wee feel guilty too, hmm?

Its very interesting to see the discussion direction. Clearly at the moment it seems to be focussed on medical problems/ development rates, poor parenting.
Without assessing each individual case and the history it is almost impossible to say what the cause is. There are so many factors.

However, for whoever asked why a child would be dry for 9mths and then bed wet again, the reasons are almost certainly triggered by a change in daily activity such as starting or changing schools/ home circumstance such as house move, birth of sibling, loss of somebody etc.

I used to help running pead clinics and this was a common theme. Many of the service family children started wetting on posting to Cyprus where I worked. They had previously been dry until that point.

edam, sometimes I can be the Voice of Reason

My dd is 6.5 yrs and still bedwets. She refused to wear nappies after age 4 so we have been washing (and tumble drying) sheets, blankets and duvet virtually every night for over 2 years. How is that better for the environment than pull ups?

We tried lifting - she was wet by 9.30pm so we lifted her then, and made sure she was wide awake, but she was still wet every night by midnight. We lifted her at 9.30pm and 11pm but she was still wet in the morning. Not sure how that makes us, or her, 'lazy'?

We bought a bed alarm and that worked sporadicaly for a while but she would always regress. She, too, is a very deep sleeper and could not wake up.

Ds (age 5) has been dry for a couple of years, dd really wants to be dry (for sleepovers etc) but cannot.

I beleive in the hormone point that has ben rasied, but the doctors will not even consider giving us any help until she is 7

Would love to know of anything else we could do that may help ....

I don't know what the norm is - but both of mine were reliably dry at night by around 3.0 yrs....however I would cheerfully trade their 'early' (?) night reliability for better literacy skills

Carbonel, Dr refused to refer us til age 7, but when we got to Continence Clinic the consultant said why have you waited grrrrr

Good luck, the advice to increase water intake throughout the day is sound.

dd1, refused to potty train during the day until almost 4, was dry at night as well a couple of weeks later.

dd2, dry in day at 2.5yrs old, reliably dry by age 3.

dd3, almost 3years old, not qwuite there with day training, wont even attempt night training yet.

me, wasnt dry at age 6 at night. was lifted every night. still occasionally wet at age 10, also if change of circumstances, small things, such as a holiday.

i did lift dd1+2 for a short while when started night training, but both will wake up at night to go for a wee. even if dd2 sleep walks in and tries to wee in the wardrobe

Carbonel - I actually got my DDs referral via the Health visitor not GP - I just rang to see if she had any advice. My DD was over 7 by then but theres no harm asking the HV - also if you have a school nurse (we don't) evidently - from the OP - they may be able to help.

meanwhile, as I mentioned check hydration (my DD had to drink 8x200ml throughout the day, ending a couple of hours before bedtime). No fizz or caffiene (cola, cocoa). Some people find blackcurrant a problem too. It may or may not be applicable to your dd (and she might need a little less being younger) but if she currently doesnt drink much it could be worth trying as its good for general health anyway.

Good luck - hope you can get some help.

thanks hmc you have made me feel better about dd- both mine read very well for their age

Bedwetting is such a small, and uncontrolable thing when put alongside school related achievements.

PS the key to better literacy skills - in this house anyway - is phonics with lots and lots of reinforcement, properly graded books with no sounds / rules they do not know and NO guessing; good luck

raindeer, thanks we do try and make sure they drink plenty, ds will drink 1.5 pts of milk at bedtime and is still dry

Advice from the peadiatrician I worked with was.

1. No fizzy drinks.
2. No light in the bedroom at night because it stimulates vasopressin release which stimulates urine production.
3. No TV in the bedroom for the same reason.
4. No drinks after 6pm but lots to drink in the mornings and early afternoon.
5. Don't limit fluids until late pm as this just makes the urine more concentrated and the bladder doesn't empty fully. It irritates the bladder and can lead to urinary tract infections.
6. Try to find out if there is anything at home or school that is bothering lo. Children who are worrying about something take longer to get to sleep because they are thinking about it, just because eyes are closed doesn't mean they are actually

asleep, they do pretend. This means that they are exhausted when they eventually fall asleep and sleep more deeply.

1. Sensible bedtime and routine including going to the toilet before bed.

8.Be consistent.