to think that the school nurse shouldn't have sent me this letter...

[emkana]

which has a programme in it how to deal with dd2's "bedwetting" WTF? She doesn't do "bedwetting", she's only 4.4 and still in pull-ups, which I thought was widely accepted as quite normal?

If it is a hormone thing, it's surely a bit like puberty?

Let's all laugh at the girls with no boobs at 13 then, shall we?

Not started your periods by 14?

No bumfluff on a boy's face by 15?

It's lazy parenting not to make your daughter develop. Try buying her a bra - all this pandering to her with vests and the like is stopping her breasts developing.

As for boys with unbroken voices at 16...why aren't you making them do voice exercises?

I stand by my original thought - if you've a child who naturally does stuff early and you think it's good parenting on your part, and you're smug about it, you're a twat.

Where have all the night time nappy haters gone?

Sorry havent read the thread as it is quite long. However this is why I told the school that I don't want the school nurse anywhere near my child and I certainly don't want or need their advice!

Ok, I'm going to try one more time.

It would be really easy to keep your (youngest) DC in a pushchair until they're school age. You'll be quicker, they can't run off anywhere and you don't have to worry about them falling over. However, you might think it's in their interest when they're about 2 or 3 to let them have a go at walking out of the pushchair sometimes. Aged 2, they might constantly run into the road or they might be a complete dream child who always holds your hand. But the point is, you won't know unless you try. If it doesn't work, you pop them back into the pushchair for another few months then try again.

To me, potty training, be it daytime or nighttime is the same - you try it, it either works or doesn't after a couple of weeks, then you go back to nappies or progess to pants. No-one gets stressed, the washing machine isn't going flat out for too long and sometimes a few months can make a big difference in a child's development.

And if that makes me a twat, so be it

Zog, very nicely said. Not a twat at all.

Try. But if it doesn't work out that doesn't mean you (or your child!) have failed. Try again - later.

You are right zog. I think that most parents here think the same way and most probably do just that. Although I'm sure there are many who know their children well enough t know whether they are ready iyswim.

Brilliantly put Zog

No one is seeing what some of us are saying

Just because a pull up is wet, doesn't mean a child isn't ready to go without

Some children will be very late in getting dry at night but a lot are in pull ups because they keep getting wet, so parents think the child isn't ready and leave them in pull ups.

Before pull ups, once a child outgrew the biggest nappy, they went without (around 3 years) Some went on to wet the bed older than 7, most were dry. And although it may not be something you discuss freely, I was one of the very few kids who didn't go brownie/guide camp or to sleep overs, due to wetting, there weren't many that didn't go

As I said before, the eneurisis clinic I went to, hate pull ups, they say they delay the process hugely. My dd is physically disabled and it took a year to get her 99% dry at night, as soon as the pull ups went, she managed 50%. It was a slog but worth it and was doubly hard due to her physical difficulties

Someone up there ^^ was shocked that something would take 1.5 months to go through a process, that really isn't a long time and I don't see why she was shocked.

I agree with that part! When I was trying to get ds1 dry I was doing my best to be all calm and understanding about it. The school nurse said that - whilst a child could be traumatised by a parent turning it into a big issue - it's important that he should understand that he should want to be dry. Leaving pull-ups on reinforces the message that wetting is expected and ok. It needs careful handling so as to avoid undue pressure whilst offering suitable encouragement.

It's a tricky one...

I've recently taken my almost 7yr old DS to bedwetting clinic and they advised me to put him in pants then put a nappy on him so he gets used to the feel of being wet at night. It's about training the brain to recognise this. Modern nappies are too efficient and perhaps causing anxiety for parents and children.

sorry i haven't read all teh thread...

but DD2 was in nappies at night until she was 5 years 5 months. then she just decided to stop using them and she was fine

Like others i thought this was fairly common and that it wasnt seen as a problem until they were 7

I have no problem with the "try it, see how it goes and if they're not ready, leave it a bit and try again another time" approach. I don't think I've said I do.

What I take issue with is people who smugly believe that the only way to do things is the way they've done it with their child, when their child might naturally just be better at whatever the thing is than another child.

I also agree that nappies or pull-ups don't necessarily need to be dry before you start - again, it depends on the child.

But there are zillions of things that DS1's done "early" that I don't think "ooh, that was because I'm a fab parent" about. Equally, there are some things he's done later than average, and I don't think it's because I'm a bad parent.

Moondog has really annoyed me on this thread with posts that take no account of the variation in physiological development between children.

I would advise parents who have children who are still having wet nighttime nappies at age 5 to try them, at a convenient time eg school summer hols, without pullups for 4 weeks at least. In that time try to institute a reward chart type system . If there are no results after that time then your child is unlikely to be physiologically ready to train, especially if there is a family history of nocturnal eneuresis.

Put child back in pullups and try again in 3-6 months time as above. Each time that you try make it clear that it is desirable to be dry at night but that if the child cannot achieve this at that time it is not their fault.

If desired a family can try a pad-alarm system rather than a reward chart but this can take up to 3 months to produce results and has a very high relapse rate. this is because it only works on one arm of the problem, addressing the deep sleeping/lack of bladder awareness but obviously not enabling the child to prosduce more of the hormone that controls nocturnal urine output.

If by aged 7 the child is still wet at night thenb the family and child should try to consider what is most appropriate for them. Use of desmospressin (synthetic version of the hormone needed) can be tried long-term or for special occasions eg sleepovers, school trips, holidays. Long-term it can have some side-effects but is generally very effective. It's reccommended that the child has annual "holidays" form the desmopressin to check if their own natural horme production has kicked in.

Sometimes the difficulties can be more comple x but are still infrequently due to parental laziness as md implies.

I agree ladida with you too (though only one person implied parental laziness, most said pull ups make people think child isn't ready, when they could be, even though the pull up is wet)

Only thing I would be careful with is the reward chart. ERIC recommends this but not with rewarding the actual dry nights, reward drinking 6-8 drinks of water a day, going to the loo regularly, going to the loo before bed, waking alone in the night to pee etc. A child can become very down if you only reward dry beds, especially as some take a long time to achieve that

To add to your advice, drinking and peeing through the day are very very important. A child that doesn't drink enough through the day has a small bladder that needs emptying more frequently. Lots and lots of water (never red or fizzy drinks though, not fizzy water either) up to and including evening meal. Lots of toilet breaks through the day. Only sips of water to satiate thirst after evening meal (though child should be well hydrated from daytime water and won't need much) Train the bladder to hold more wee and it will last longer at night

er I think moondog hasdone that thing where she posts something controversial - then disappears for weeks whilst everyone fights amongst themselves then she reappars and says 'ohhh no I haven't disappeared I was just in Mongolia or wherever it is she goes regularly' (without disposables).

Has anyone reviewed the bedwetting shorts? Before I plough my way back.....

Not heard about the red drinks thing but I'm guessing that the colourant has a diuretic effect??

I'd advise offering lots of fluids during the day, ie before 5pm, but never restricting fluids, even in the evening.

I also meant to mention that not only is a family history of bedwetting important but also a family history of getting up in the night to pass urine as and adult.

I was just thinking the same thing yurt1- the cheap shots fly as long as there aren't too many people posting, and then the rest is silence. Pathetic.

Hunker, couldn't agree more. I suppose in a parallel world I could be patting myself on the back for night training mine quickly but it has never crossed my mind until I read this thread. That's because it was a total fluke, both in terms of my parenting and their development. I can't believe people need to bolster their self-esteem over something as ridiculous as this.

sorry i haven't read all teh thread...

but DD2 was in nappies at night until she was 5 years 5 months. then she just decided to stop using them and she was fine

Like others i thought this was fairly common and that it wasnt seen as a problem until they were 7

"Someone up there ^^ was shocked that something would take 1.5 months to go through a process,"

yes - because that would be the MINIMUM if I were to move the time 15 minutes later with DS1. Because I presume that if you move the time 15 minutes later, and they're already wet when you get to them, then you have to go back to the original time??? Therefore with DS1 - who would regularly be wet within 1hr of going to bed! It could take months......and that is of course if you can actually wake them up! We tried lifting/having an alarm (to wake him up at set time - rather than a bed wetting one - can't afford one of those) and it was an utter waste of time. Yes he'd go to the toilet - but we could never wake him up enough to know what he was doing.

And he would still be SOAKED in the morning (even when we tried a 3am get up time as well it was a waste of time and energy on everyone s behalf (except DS1 who was impossible to rouse properly).

Tamum - DS2 was certainly a fluke - he had one nappy left in his pack - middle of town he's asks where we're going, I tell him "to buy nappies", he asks who for (DS3 was still tiny then), I tell him that they're his for night time and he threw the biggest tantrum he's ever thrown - right in the middle of the town centre!!!!

I called DH in a tiss - and we agreed that rather than a pack of nappies we'd buy a mattress protector and give it a try - that was middle of the summer holidays - I think we've had maybe 4/5 accidents since then - and each time he's practically screamed the house down and demanded at least a change of clothes (have to confess he usually gets a change of clothes - and the duvet is turned over and he swaps ends (likewise if he wakes up and needs a wee - as he's not too keen on the dark so doesn't like going out to the upstairs toilet on his own ).

Now is only DS1 was that simple........

Maybe DS3 will be??????

Ladida...a friend of mine was told that they should avoid Orange Juice before bedtime, as apparently that could cause bedwetting....is there any truth in that....seeing that you seem to know a fair bit about this....

And Hunker well said....

I too was wondering where md had gone. didn;t she do this before? I would particularly like her to see hunker's post of 20:57. says what I wanted to say but I'm just too damn polite . also agree that no-one here is objecting to advice. It's the way it's been put, by some posters, not all - that's been rude, smug and aimed at putting down, rather than helping.

btw I forwarded the idea of a chat/event whatever with a relevant professional to mn towers - as I do think it's an excellent idea. just have to hope it didn;t end up like this thread!

Yes, good luck with ds3! Your experience also shows that it's not even just hormones that can contribute to variation, but sleeping behaviour and fastidiousness (and no doubt other things).

IceQueen - No judgement, just curious: Are you saying your DS can't hold his wee for an hour?

If 15 mins is too much, can't you set your clock 5 mins later every night when you wake him up for a wee?

My only dd is not yet potty trained so no personal experience here, just curious.

Icequeen....there is always one eh...so....seeing that you have your one already, I am sure ds3 will be a dream