To be narked by this woman’s attitude? Working parents v child free employees

[SJaneS49]

Not a biggie, at the moment I’ve got a lot going on in the background and am generally hacked of with the world .. but this response has generated a real ‘oh ffs’ reaction in me just now.

Expectations of working parents, especially women as typically (but not obviously always ) we have to date carried more of the childcare burden and been the ones taking the compromises has always been of interest to me & something I think we have got wrong in Britain. I posted something on LinkedIn earlier about how society expects parents to work as if they don’t have children and to parent as if they don’t work. Until I started working from home 14 years ago, that was my experience as a professional working in London, working all hours in the office while also being the sole parent at home, getting in about 7.30/8pm & going straight into helping out with homework.

So I put out a question on LinkedIn, asking parents if their recent experience of working in the new normal had changed what they themselves would be looking for in their next role in terms of flexibility of hours worked when or where they carried out their work. Plenty of employers are currently offering flexibility..but are pretty woolly & vague on what the expectations will be in the longer term. Quite possibly as a number haven’t really worked that out themselves yet! As well as interesting me on a personal level, as I advise my clients on how to make their roles more attractive, I wanted to gauge what changes 2020/21 had made to attracting candidates who if they were parents might not now (having experienced the opportunity to be more ‘present’) want to go back to how it was. Potentially!

Anyway. I have had a reply from someone who is child free who I worked with on a project years ago basically saying special measures should not be made for parents and therefore burdening their childless colleagues. Flexibility if it was being offered should be for all.

While I completely agree with her that parents should not be offered special measures or more flexible options than others, I wasn’t suggesting that at all! Which has me wondering whether this would read like this to others? This particular woman seems to spend a lot of her time writing ranty comments on LinkedIn posts judging by my feed so feeling a bit 🙄 about implications made in her post that the child free ‘carry’ more workload than working parents.

Basically, is she being a knob? Or was it fair enough! Just brought back memories of some of the attitudes around years ago of some of the women I worked with, making bitchy comments about women who had to head out at dead on 5 to relieve the childminder.

I can see both sides to an extent - I think there is a valid debate to be had about balancing work with parenthood, particularly in the post-Covid world. But I also think that there's a valid debate to be had about balancing non-parenthood life with work too. My need to, for example, collect my DS from nursery doesn't necessarily trump someone else's need to care for an elderly parent or go to a language class or have a night out with friends. It just seems difficult to have both discussions at the same time because one side automatically feels hard done by the other.

I do completely agree @mynameiscalypso that the same question equally could have gone out to any other person with a big outside of work commitment

Her point is a validate one. Flexibility, where available, should be available to all.

So I put out a question on LinkedIn, asking parents if their recent experience of working in the new normal had changed what they themselves would be looking for in their next role in terms of flexibility of hours worked when or where they carried out their work.
Considering you phrased your question towards parents, then I don't think you can take the hump at her nit picking
I completely agree with her that parents should not be offered special measures or more flexible options than others, I wasn’t suggesting that at all!
But by directing your original comment to parents - then this probably doesn't come across in your original post.

So ya, I think yabu to be pissed at her response, when you agree with it, but directed your comments to parents.

I think the last 1.5 yrs has showed a lot of people the importance of flexibility and balance and personally I would like to see employers continue that.

@SJaneS49 - but also it doesn't necessarily have to be a big outside of work commitment imo. I don't think anyone should have to justify their personal time to their employers or made to feel like that can't have a flexible arrange because they don't have "sufficiently" important caring duties.

Usually most years, someone posts on mumsnet, either moaning that child free colleagues are booking holidays during the summer, or child-free people asking why shouldn’t they book then. Similarly at Christmas parents sometimes want to pull rank (because they have children) and want Christmas Eve or Christmas Day off.

Examples whereby having children shouldn’t trump childless (or children grown up) colleagues.

I think workplaces can improve flexibility but for all, not just parents. MAybe they can change working hours, allowing people a number of ‘caring hours per person (ie. extra holiday hours, but to be used for childcare/elderly care /hospital appts only).

Sounds like her response was poorly put and that this is a really hot topic for her. I do struggle a bit with this as a non parent. Not only have I found my needs when caring for my elderly parents have not been well supported (in contrast to people who have children), I have also been narked in the past when people who have had long breaks and work reduced hours are given opportunities ahead of me because of 'fairness'. I don't want to disadvantage people who have taken time off with children. But I don't want to be disadvantaged because I haven't.

I think it’s unfair parents with younger children are given more flexibility. My mum has tried to book off Christmas Eve or Boxing Day for the last few years so she can have two full days off for Christmas. She’s had it denied each year with the reason being “it’s a time for those with young families”
So her options are spending Christmas completely alone or me driving a 120mile round trip on Christmas Eve at about 6pm so missing out on time with my DSDs or doing it on Christmas morning, then to drive her back Christmas night stopping me being able to have a drink/play games or set off back with her at 7am on Boxing Day! Last year she argued with her boss because none of the others had asked for it off but had been given it automatically.

Some non parents get a bit weird about it all, like you just mentioning your parenting commitments is some unacceptable act. I usually think there's issues for them when they do. Like maybe infertility or something. Having legal responsibility for a child isn't really like anything else and it's ok to discuss the particular logistic/practical problems that involves in the context of working and providing for your family. But it does seem to bend some folks out of shape.

In so much as you were asking parents I can see why her response might have annoyed you but I agree with the central tenet of her point: flexibility for everyone regardless of their circumstances.

Flexibility should be the same and offered to all regardless of children.

If the flexibility exists then it has to be applied fairly and to everyone.

But it does seem to bend some folks out of shape

I think it’s the entitlement and attitude of some parents that “bend some folks out of shape” tbh.

Flexible working could be a big plus to many people, regardless of caring responsibilities. People should use their time as they see fit, we only get one life. if you want to work long hours 4 days a week so that on Day 5 you can go hill walking / watch TV all day / volunteer / look after DC / perfect your garden / join some wierd religious cult / etc then it’s really not up to an employer to decide what is worthy and what isn’t.

The human race doesn’t need any more members. We’re not going to run out of people.

Some non parents get a bit weird about it all, like you just mentioning your parenting commitments is some unacceptable act

I don't think anyone minds anyone talking about their commitments, whether as a parent or carer or others, but the expectation that one persons commitments is more important than another's is more likely what gets people "bent out of shape".

Flexibility should be available to all.
Being a parent doesn’t make you more special or more deserving of extras at work that your child free coworkers would also like. I am looking at you, ex boss, who wouldn’t give me 2 weeks off during summer because priority was given to those who has kids.

This is the problem.

So I put out a question on LinkedIn, asking parents if their recent experience of working in the new normal had changed what they themselves would be looking for in their next role in terms of flexibility of hours worked when or where they carried out their work

You only asked about parents.

I agree with her. My kids are grown up but I still want flexibility. And I’d be right annoyed if parents were given it before me.

But OP was asking parents about their experiences and views on flexible working. Not saying that parents are better or should get all the holidays or that no one else should work flexibly or celebrate Xmas or any of the other tangents this thread has already gone off on within a few posts. She was just asking for parents' views. With some people they just hear the word parent and start going on about all sorts.

The problem is that it's in capitalist society / employers' interest to create an air of competition between us.

Yes, perhaps you could have been more inclusive with the language you used - you don't have to be a parent or carer to want to work flexibly. But also non-parents shouldn't feel put upon by their colleagues with kids asking for fairer working conditions, when the root cause is that their employers haven't invested in a large enough workforce.

I don't have kids but am very grateful for the flexibility in my role which is allowing me to take DH to his various cancer related appointments. If that flexibility was offered to parents but not me, particularly given we're now having to have some really hard conversations about fertility, I would be more than miffed. I think she has a point.

OP, it’s ironic that you are accusing her of writing rants posts when yours is similar here, complete will eye roll emoji and all. You asked for feedback, you got answer. What did you expect? Tom only get replies you like.
FWIW, childfree people should not be expected to pick up the slack from those with children. And it can often feel like it for those who don’t have children.

If OP was running a business that offers flexible working for parents and not for anyone else I guess some of these points would be relevant. I don't think she is though. She just asked a question to a particular cohort. Same as people do ask questions to any particular cohort. And then some fool comes along all mad because they're not in the cohort.

Flexible working should be available to all, and I say that as a single working parent. But someone jumping on another person who is specifically asking parents for their experiences of flexible working needs to find a different tree to bark up. Anyone is free to start their own campaigns, and the answer is not to jump on someone else's with their whataboutery.

I'm the only person in my team with young children and the only person who works part time. I have no idea if my colleagues feel like they are picking up my slack - if they did, my response would be that they are paid to do more hours than me and therefore they really should be getting more work done than I am. At my organisation, they are all able to request flexible working if they want.

@MeAndDebbieMcGee

Some non parents get a bit weird about it all, like you just mentioning your parenting commitments is some unacceptable act. I usually think there's issues for them when they do. Like maybe infertility or something. Having legal responsibility for a child isn't really like anything else and it's ok to discuss the particular logistic/practical problems that involves in the context of working and providing for your family. But it does seem to bend some folks out of shape.

Yes I get "bent out of shape" when somebody's parenting is prioritised over every single part of my life!. And how DARE you suggest it's because I have "issues", or infertility. I don't have offspring because I never wanted them, not because I couldn't. I just resent my life being organised around somebody else's lifestyle choices every single time, and never getting my choice of e.g. time off.

Someone needs to come in early? Oh Allergic can, she doesn't have a school run.
Someone has to stay late? Oh Allergic can, she doesn't have kids to pick up.
Overtime needed? Let Allergic work the extra hours, it's not like she has anything more important to do with her time.
Christmas/New Year/Easter cover? We all have kids, but Allergic doesn't so her family holidays aren't important.
All school holidays or half terms? Oh we have plans with the kids, Allergic can take her holidays at the times we don't want to.

@Allergictoironing what does any of that have to do with the OP?

She is not a knob. She has a very valid point. In my massive company it’s frowned upon for non-parents to ask for flexible working. So attitudes do need to change, although COVID has helped.

[quote MeAndDebbieMcGee]@Allergictoironing what does any of that have to do with the OP?[/quote]
Of course it’s twisted to the OP.