To be narked by this woman’s attitude? Working parents v child free employees

[SJaneS49]

Not a biggie, at the moment I’ve got a lot going on in the background and am generally hacked of with the world .. but this response has generated a real ‘oh ffs’ reaction in me just now.

Expectations of working parents, especially women as typically (but not obviously always ) we have to date carried more of the childcare burden and been the ones taking the compromises has always been of interest to me & something I think we have got wrong in Britain. I posted something on LinkedIn earlier about how society expects parents to work as if they don’t have children and to parent as if they don’t work. Until I started working from home 14 years ago, that was my experience as a professional working in London, working all hours in the office while also being the sole parent at home, getting in about 7.30/8pm & going straight into helping out with homework.

So I put out a question on LinkedIn, asking parents if their recent experience of working in the new normal had changed what they themselves would be looking for in their next role in terms of flexibility of hours worked when or where they carried out their work. Plenty of employers are currently offering flexibility..but are pretty woolly & vague on what the expectations will be in the longer term. Quite possibly as a number haven’t really worked that out themselves yet! As well as interesting me on a personal level, as I advise my clients on how to make their roles more attractive, I wanted to gauge what changes 2020/21 had made to attracting candidates who if they were parents might not now (having experienced the opportunity to be more ‘present’) want to go back to how it was. Potentially!

Anyway. I have had a reply from someone who is child free who I worked with on a project years ago basically saying special measures should not be made for parents and therefore burdening their childless colleagues. Flexibility if it was being offered should be for all.

While I completely agree with her that parents should not be offered special measures or more flexible options than others, I wasn’t suggesting that at all! Which has me wondering whether this would read like this to others? This particular woman seems to spend a lot of her time writing ranty comments on LinkedIn posts judging by my feed so feeling a bit 🙄 about implications made in her post that the child free ‘carry’ more workload than working parents.

Basically, is she being a knob? Or was it fair enough! Just brought back memories of some of the attitudes around years ago of some of the women I worked with, making bitchy comments about women who had to head out at dead on 5 to relieve the childminder.

@ConstantlySeekingHappiness

But it does seem to bend some folks out of shape

I think it’s the entitlement and attitude of some parents that “bend some folks out of shape” tbh.

This Equality for all should be exactly this. So many problems are caused because those that have this entitled attitude,obviously a small minority of parents believe they should be treated as special compared to all other employees.

Tbh, I used to get pretty pissed off being the one expected to finish work when my colleagues would swan off at 3pm to get the kids. One even used to say that everybody should be prepared to make sacrifices for the future generations. Fuck that. Not my kids, not my problem!

@Wewereliars Nothing rude and ignorant about it.
Child free doesn't always mean never had children. I'm child free by the virtue of mine being married adults.
If you choose to have children and work, then that's a choice, just as some women choose to have children and not work.....choice.
It's not my choice to pick up the slack for women who chose to have children and work.
That's why the rules should apply to everyone, parents or not.

@ColorMagicBarbie

Tbh, I used to get pretty pissed off being the one expected to finish work when my colleagues would swan off at 3pm to get the kids. One even used to say that everybody should be prepared to make sacrifices for the future generations. Fuck that. Not my kids, not my problem!

Were they 'swanning off' even though it was still their working hours, or did they work part-time or a different work pattern and so left earlier than you? Either way any anger should be directed at your employer who was either failing to enforce basic standards in employees or agreeing working patterns that weren't actually practical because they left work undone.

I think what she said was reasonable, it comes across a bit as parents are the only ones fussed on or attracted by a job offering flexibility when that obviously isn't the case. Her comment was fair as well, if a workplace offers flexibility to parents then they should be ensure that it doesn't burden others in the team, im sure most have experienced not being on the other side of this, which isn't always the case. I guess perhaps her annoyance was that the question was around flexibility, yet excluded a lot of the workforce who would have useful and valuable input- it sort of suggests that they don't matter.

Fair enough, I think. Before we had children, I was frequently expected to just pick up someone else’s work because they had to leave by 5 pm. Christmas was a nightmare too, it was assumed that people without children had no caring responsibilities, commitments or just wanted to spend time with their loved ones too.

Flexibility for all, or no-one. I think specifically putting it in terms of parents needing allowances made is likely to irritate people without children.

It's quite simple really. A better work life balance is more attractive to people. It doesn't matter why, or what priorities people have in their personal lives. There's absolutely no need at all to create division between parents and non parents.

Aside from that, non parents have often been on the shitty end of the stick when it comes to who has to pick up the slack, so I can understand the prickliness.

@MrsSkylerWhite

Fair enough, I think. Before we had children, I was frequently expected to just pick up someone else’s work because they had to leave by 5 pm. Christmas was a nightmare too, it was assumed that people without children had no caring responsibilities, commitments or just wanted to spend time with their loved ones too.

Flexibility for all, or no-one. I think specifically putting it in terms of parents needing allowances made is likely to irritate people without children.

Yes holiday was a nightmare- Christmas and summer was pretty much a no go because everyone with children would cause such a fuss. Mostly bad management though to be fair, I have since worked in places with a much fairer attitude. I feel well supported as a parent, and so do my colleagues who are childfree but also have a life, responsibilities and plans outside of work!

I get you OP.

It seems like it is a can of worms tho, like you might have hit a raw nerve, without meaning too

Perhaps we should turn our discussion back to whether we are allowed to call ourselves women or vaginas?!

From 16-39 I was childless & I have to say yes I definitely covered for colleagues who had young kids. But these same women covered for me
when I needed to care for my parents, supported me through ivf & are now covering for me after having a baby. So it’s swings and roundabouts. As long as the workplace allows everyone support eventually then its ok.

I have a little one. He has taken over my life in the best way and I want to spend time with him. It's also what he deserves.

I was infertile for many years before having him and I worked as others took priority for holidays and never had to stay late because of their choice to have children.

Having children is absolutely a choice and any benefits bestowed upon parents should also be reaped by non-parents. It's only fair and it doesn't matter at all if the childfree only use their free time drinking and watching Netflix whilst parents are cleaning vomit. As someone who had to go through a lot to get my little vomiter, I know it was my choice and nobody else should have to pick up the slack for it.

In one job I had I might have made more of the role I played in my niece's life than was strictly true

I think it boils down to the expectations of the workplace. If the job is x amount of hours why is there any bitching that people leave on time? Working over summers etc should be shared/ rota type same with Christmas or whatever. I hate this ridiculous notion that unless you stay over extra or start first you are not commited or good at your job. Work is part of life not living to work and that should be for all employees.

In theory yes flexibility should be available to all. In practice though as a childless woman who has worked all her life I've been expected to pick-up work for parents who suddenly need to be at home for childcare, been penalised for being genuinely poorly twice in 6 months whilst pregnant colleagues go, unbothered to numerous appointments and been denied holidays at Christmas be because I don't have "family".

I think most people who dont have kids/ other caring responsibilities really don't have a clue how hard it can be. I absolutely feel that they should get priority re flexibility. Lone parents in particular.

@ohgiveup and @sjxoxo i misread that quote and thought the OP was now saying that parents should have more flexibility which wasn't what she had written on her OP. Apologies to @SJanes49 !

There is a difference between the question you asked on LinkedIn and the question you asked on here, which was Basically, is she being a knob? Or was it fair enough! Asking if she was being a knob wasn't great, for starters. You could have found another way to phrase it rather than denigrating her.

There are plenty of examples on MN, as PPs have said, where flexibility for parents = non parents picking up the slack. Holiday choices significantly reduced. Expected to do the overtime, come in early. Maybe she's been on the receiving end of that recently hence her response.

And while I know I'm going to get blasted by posters saying how dare you, can ALL parents who have greater flexibility honestly say that they do all the work they're supposed to do? That they don't take time out here and there to go to school meetings, school plays, or if they do, they make up ALL the time they've taken?

While you may not have intended it, I can see how it may have been taken as flexibility only for parents, particularly by anyone who has been on the wrong end of that flexibility.

Willyoujustbequiet fortunately it seems from this thread the majority don't agree with you.

@Willyoujustbequiet

I think most people who dont have kids/ other caring responsibilities really don't have a clue how hard it can be. I absolutely feel that they should get priority re flexibility. Lone parents in particular.

The thing is, it's not childless people's problem and shouldn't be made their problem. Why should they know or care care 'how hard it can be'? An employer is employing you not your family.

So no, your personal choices shouldn't mean you get priority over someone else.

An employer is employing you, not your family.

@MeAndDebbieMcGee

Some non parents get a bit weird about it all, like you just mentioning your parenting commitments is some unacceptable act. I usually think there's issues for them when they do. Like maybe infertility or something. Having legal responsibility for a child isn't really like anything else and it's ok to discuss the particular logistic/practical problems that involves in the context of working and providing for your family. But it does seem to bend some folks out of shape.

I found it much harder to be a carer for an adult, years before I had a child, than to have a child.

It’s really not ‘unlike anything else’.

You mean it’s unlike anything else that YOU had previously experienced.

I think parents go wrong when they try and universalist from their own experience, forgetting that many people without children have very significant responsibilities.

Certainly workplace flexibility was even less when I was caring for a non-verbal adult requiring nappy changes than when I was doing the same for a child.

No extra advantages for parents- they get enough already for their life choices.

This conversation is madness, and a real red herring.

What is required is decent, high quality, affordable childcare, affordable housing and an actual living minimum wage.

Even as a non parent, by choice, I think my taxes should go towards supporting businesses to provide that.

Reframe the discussion.

I think flexible working should be available to people without children, though I do believe slightly more flexibility should be offered to those with children.

It's tricky because different people want different things, and have different needs.

In an ideal world work life balance would be important for people in general. But that's difficult when we have the idea that employers should squeeze as much as possible out of employees and so they tend to under-staff, or take on too much work.

Ideally employees in a workplace would try and fit in so that everyone can do a fair share, even if it's not the same thing. Maybe a person without a child covers someone's days home with sick kids, but they other employee reciprocates in some other way. But that's not always managed well, and lots of people are jerks.

And there will always be some people who are more dedicated than normal to a job, who are very ambitious or see it as a vocation. They need to realize that other people generally won't want that lifestyle and shouldn't be expected to perform that way. OTOH others need to realize that working that way may well mean they go to the top in terms of promotion and pay and that's perfectly fair.

@Rubytinsleslippers

I think it boils down to the expectations of the workplace. If the job is x amount of hours why is there any bitching that people leave on time? Working over summers etc should be shared/ rota type same with Christmas or whatever. I hate this ridiculous notion that unless you stay over extra or start first you are not commited or good at your job. Work is part of life not living to work and that should be for all employees.

Yeah, this can be a real piss off. If the job ends at 5, then people who leave at 5 are actually not doing anything wrong, even if others stay later.