To be narked by this woman’s attitude? Working parents v child free employees

[SJaneS49]

Not a biggie, at the moment I’ve got a lot going on in the background and am generally hacked of with the world .. but this response has generated a real ‘oh ffs’ reaction in me just now.

Expectations of working parents, especially women as typically (but not obviously always ) we have to date carried more of the childcare burden and been the ones taking the compromises has always been of interest to me & something I think we have got wrong in Britain. I posted something on LinkedIn earlier about how society expects parents to work as if they don’t have children and to parent as if they don’t work. Until I started working from home 14 years ago, that was my experience as a professional working in London, working all hours in the office while also being the sole parent at home, getting in about 7.30/8pm & going straight into helping out with homework.

So I put out a question on LinkedIn, asking parents if their recent experience of working in the new normal had changed what they themselves would be looking for in their next role in terms of flexibility of hours worked when or where they carried out their work. Plenty of employers are currently offering flexibility..but are pretty woolly & vague on what the expectations will be in the longer term. Quite possibly as a number haven’t really worked that out themselves yet! As well as interesting me on a personal level, as I advise my clients on how to make their roles more attractive, I wanted to gauge what changes 2020/21 had made to attracting candidates who if they were parents might not now (having experienced the opportunity to be more ‘present’) want to go back to how it was. Potentially!

Anyway. I have had a reply from someone who is child free who I worked with on a project years ago basically saying special measures should not be made for parents and therefore burdening their childless colleagues. Flexibility if it was being offered should be for all.

While I completely agree with her that parents should not be offered special measures or more flexible options than others, I wasn’t suggesting that at all! Which has me wondering whether this would read like this to others? This particular woman seems to spend a lot of her time writing ranty comments on LinkedIn posts judging by my feed so feeling a bit 🙄 about implications made in her post that the child free ‘carry’ more workload than working parents.

Basically, is she being a knob? Or was it fair enough! Just brought back memories of some of the attitudes around years ago of some of the women I worked with, making bitchy comments about women who had to head out at dead on 5 to relieve the childminder.

It is ok for posts to open up into a wider discussion though. OP specifically asked if the person who responded to her post was being a 'knob'. Lots of people don't think so and agree with the 'knob'. I can see OP isn't happy about that, but I am confused then why she posted in AIBU.

I think people (both parents and Bob-parents) are sometimes becoming a bit selfish in general. I’m writing this while waiting for board papers that a colleague has asked for to do a board pack. She’s had to leave to do mum duties. I don’t have a problem with that. I have a problem with the five people who have not yet submitted their papers, which should have been in at 5pm, who have assumed that someone will be there to receive the papers, PDF them, merge them into a pack, and circulate them tonight. Some people really don’t give a toss about others, parents or not.

Maybe people read it differently but why did that particular response wind you up so much?

Pre-children, I worked for a large company and they were notorious for giving those with children flexibility and time off short notice that was not extended to those who did not have children. I didn't mind not having leave over the summer/easter etc because I understood that it's hard for working parents. But I did find that no one cared.about anyone who wasn't a parent.
I asked for one day off to move house and was.told no because we were short.
I found out a week before one of my colleagues had forgotten about a play her daughter was in and was given the day off. Sometimes it feels like.double.standards.and you don't really matter because those with kids are entitled to more help and flexibility.

I think the issue is, that in directing your question to just parents it highlights that parents are often favoured for flexibility.

My work did a survey of staff to find out what the workforce wanted and if they wanted more flexibility. The questions were around needing more flexibility for childcare, as if that’s the default and only option for why you would flexible working. All of my team responded they wanted more flexible working - only 3/8 have young children. I’m currently pregnant with my first, I wanted flexible working and whilst childcare was in the back only my mind, I actually wanted flexible working for volunteering. I don’t know why the other four people in my team wanted flexible working when they don’t have childcare, and it doesn’t really matter what reason they want it, it’s just that they want it.

You can frame your question as your experience as a parent but acknowledge it’s not just parents who want flexible working. Especially when you’re talking about opportunities.

Why did it wind me up? Because quite specifically I don’t think working parents should have greater flexibility than there peers. I wasn’t and am not arguing for that quite simply. To repeat (again) it was an open question to parents on whether now having had the opportunity to be more physically present in the day to day whether that would now make any difference to what they looked for in a job. Or not. The answer could of course be not.

And their not there peers. I think I need a coffee to wake myself up a bit!

Because quite specifically I don’t think working parents should have greater flexibility than there peers

Why?

[quote sillysmiles]@SJaneS49 - but also it doesn't necessarily have to be a big outside of work commitment imo. I don't think anyone should have to justify their personal time to their employers or made to feel like that can't have a flexible arrange because they don't have "sufficiently" important caring duties.[/quote]
This. People’s personal life is exactly that- flexible working should be for everyone. If you extend it only to parents it suggests it’s not really sustainable and the slack is to be picked up by other colleagues; in reality it should be for all. Some people are childless by choice, others aren’t. It’s deffo unreasonable to only give parents flexible working IMO. I don’t mind doing extra to cover my colleagues as needed but I would do it for everyone within reason. x

I'm always curious to know how many of those who complain that those with have been given flexibility and those without children aren't have actually asked for it. There's a very strong feeling in my team at work that only parents get flexibility - and some resentment of me as the only parent of young children in the team - but none of the people who complain have ever actually applied for a flexible working agreement. It was so satisfying when my boys announced I was going down to 0.9 - cue eye rolls from a couple of the team - and that so was one of the team who doesn't have children, and who wanted to spend more time on his hobby. Because we had both actually applied for it, unlike the moaners (who I don't think really want to give up 10% of their salary anyway).

*boss not boys!

Indeed flexible working should be everyone. Again not what I was arguing against.

And why not as a PP has asked, as it’s not fair. But again that wasn’t the question I asked, it was whether flexible options would make a difference to the appeal of a job or not to parents. My angle is that far too many women I’ve known professionally and personally have compromised their careers after having children or just dropped out as that flexibility with most jobs (and flexibility open to all!) just hasn’t been there. This has been a huge waste of talent and ability. There is a glimmer of change on the horizon but a lot of employers at the moment aren’t guaranteeing flexibility in the long term .. there is a lot of ‘we anticipate that..’.

I agree with your colleague, non parents do pick up the load, we often have to pick up extra work when a parent can't come in because there kid is I'll, or kid in trouble at school so have to leave work with no notice.

Hybrid or WFH should be offered to all equally, and whether someone is a parent or not shouldn't factor to the employer making the offer.

society expects parents to work as if they don’t have children and to parent as if they don’t work

^^ I must remember this. Sums it up exactly.

Your colleague is a nob. Yes, there should be flexibility for all in businesses/ roles than can allow it. But that kind of derail / whataboutery is really annoying!

@MeAndDebbieMcGee

If OP was running a business that offers flexible working for parents and not for anyone else I guess some of these points would be relevant. I don't think she is though. She just asked a question to a particular cohort. Same as people do ask questions to any particular cohort. And then some fool comes along all mad because they're not in the cohort.

It's divisive to just ask one particular cohort that's why. If we are to have true flexible working then it does need to be open to all and all groups - parents of young children, parents of older children, non parents - need to be involved in the discussions and no one group should be treated differently.

My DH was an older dad when DS was born - his kids from his first marriage were teens and he was 44. He was refused annual leave regularly during the summer, half terms or at Christmas because "your children are older" - this wasn't true, he had a small child too, but as he was in his early 50s when DS was at primary school he was obviously older than colleagues with similarly aged children. It was a huge source of frustration. It isn't just parents vs non parents, it can also be an age issue.

@Sillysmiles Because why should none parents have to pick up the slack due to your choices, that's why.

Putting a question out on Linked In always risks negative, subjective responses. It’s basically social media - individuals may be having particular issues at work that influence their posts and present a biased view.

Instead of pitting parents against non-parents (and I can see it from both sides, I’d been in my career 17 years before I had a child), individuals need to look to their employers to offer fair policies to all.

And take up the offer if you want it - you can’t really complain about those who have taken a pay cut in return for flexible working if you’re not prepared to do the same.

I think it's perfectly fine to ask a question of a particular group of society. Imagine of the OP asked women if they feel safe walking home after a night out or whatever, imagine if a man said, "well actually, there're a few dark corners I like to steer clear off." It's perfectly fine that parents feel sometimes aggrieved that they don't get special treatment.

It's divisive to just ask one particular cohort that's why. If we are to have true flexible working then it does need to be open to all and all groups - parents of young children, parents of older children, non parents - need to be involved in the discussions and no one group should be treated differently.

It’s not divisive to ask parents if their life choices are shaped by being parents, though. Which is what OP was doing.

However, given that most of this thread - presumably dominated by parents- didn’t appreciate the question OP was asking and instead have answered a totally different question/given an opinion in a different matter (flexible working being open to all) then it probably was an ill-thought out or worded post.

@VladmirsPoutine

I think it's perfectly fine to ask a question of a particular group of society. Imagine of the OP asked women if they feel safe walking home after a night out or whatever, imagine if a man said, "well actually, there're a few dark corners I like to steer clear off." It's perfectly fine that parents feel sometimes aggrieved that they don't get special treatment.

Ha! This is exactly what I was thinking. It’s very reminiscent of the “But what about the menz?” responses you can get.

Sounds like someone looking to be offended.

Also I think everyone should be given flexibility when it's needed because people are humans and have doctor appointments, child care issues, deaths in the family, mental health needs and so on. I don't think it speaks well of an employer to behave as though we all need to prioritize work over everything else, it's nonsense.

I felt quite awkward when a manager made it clear I'd get preferential treatment because I had kids, in terms of flexible working, holiday and hours pick, working from home etc. Said kids were teens! I really appreciated the consideration, but I was last on, and didn't need it.

Whereas the worker who had to deal with her mother with dementia, health issues herself, and an ongoing divorce, really did need it.

And it really shouldn't be assumed that those who don't have children will pick up extra shifts/short fall/ sacrifice the important holidays for those with children. That is quite simply not cricket.

I worked for many years pre children and now my children are pretty much grown up I can see both sides of the argument.

But I find it offensive that people call having children a lifestyle choice, how ridiculous. Without people having children the human race dies out, simple as that.

Children are very dependant for such a small time really, and when they are ill or have to be picked up that is just not negotiable for a parent. Not remotely comparable to getting nails done or haircut..

These kids will be nursing you and wiping your bums in a care home one day.

I actually agree with her. And I say that as someone with a teenage daughter and always working since she is 1.

I had colleagues who would use every excuse to block holidays, ensure they could leave early/arrive late because of school events instead of arrainging annual leave (I am not talking about the odd 30 minutes, I talk about 2 hours or so) or never offering to cover when another one needed emergency time off.

I also had/have colleagues where you can see a good working partnership with the husband/wife. Good planning with requesting time off, ensuring the team is not too short, taking turns with the partner for school events and arranging time off as annual leave instead of relying on good will.

My work changed some procedures which previously were only available for working parents like paid emergency leave after complains. And I agree, a sudden ill partner is equal to need care than a sudden ill child for example.

We also have several childless colleagues who are working part time since the rules were changed as well. Children shouldn't be the only way to arrange changes in the work.