To be narked by this woman’s attitude? Working parents v child free employees

[SJaneS49]

Not a biggie, at the moment I’ve got a lot going on in the background and am generally hacked of with the world .. but this response has generated a real ‘oh ffs’ reaction in me just now.

Expectations of working parents, especially women as typically (but not obviously always ) we have to date carried more of the childcare burden and been the ones taking the compromises has always been of interest to me & something I think we have got wrong in Britain. I posted something on LinkedIn earlier about how society expects parents to work as if they don’t have children and to parent as if they don’t work. Until I started working from home 14 years ago, that was my experience as a professional working in London, working all hours in the office while also being the sole parent at home, getting in about 7.30/8pm & going straight into helping out with homework.

So I put out a question on LinkedIn, asking parents if their recent experience of working in the new normal had changed what they themselves would be looking for in their next role in terms of flexibility of hours worked when or where they carried out their work. Plenty of employers are currently offering flexibility..but are pretty woolly & vague on what the expectations will be in the longer term. Quite possibly as a number haven’t really worked that out themselves yet! As well as interesting me on a personal level, as I advise my clients on how to make their roles more attractive, I wanted to gauge what changes 2020/21 had made to attracting candidates who if they were parents might not now (having experienced the opportunity to be more ‘present’) want to go back to how it was. Potentially!

Anyway. I have had a reply from someone who is child free who I worked with on a project years ago basically saying special measures should not be made for parents and therefore burdening their childless colleagues. Flexibility if it was being offered should be for all.

While I completely agree with her that parents should not be offered special measures or more flexible options than others, I wasn’t suggesting that at all! Which has me wondering whether this would read like this to others? This particular woman seems to spend a lot of her time writing ranty comments on LinkedIn posts judging by my feed so feeling a bit 🙄 about implications made in her post that the child free ‘carry’ more workload than working parents.

Basically, is she being a knob? Or was it fair enough! Just brought back memories of some of the attitudes around years ago of some of the women I worked with, making bitchy comments about women who had to head out at dead on 5 to relieve the childminder.

@wewereliars

Of course it’s a lifestyle choice. Do you know many people that had children they otherwise didn’t want, solely as an act of noble sacrifice to contribute to human survival? I highly fucking doubt it.

Your dislike of it being called a lifestyle choice doesn’t make it less of one.

Some child-free women do look down on working mums. But I've found its mostly younger ones in the 'partying and career' life stage that do. I used to be like this myself. I had some stupid attitudes as I was a self centred young thing. I don't think anyone ever made me cover for parents/mums but I just felt they were a bit 'obsolete' in our company in London. Yep what an arrogant and ignorant arse I was. But hey, now I get that from young women myself!! It is very hard to understand what working parenting is like before you do it. And even then it takes years of it before the penny drops there's no going back. Just like lots of other things, Parents don't have a monopoly on difficult lives...but..as so many of us are parents , and children are required to keep population going...then perhaps more should have been done by now to make this better.
I see less flexible roles at the moment not more. Lots say flexible but not many are actually part time.
A lot of us are stuck in not very good jobs because of our commitments. I also have an absolutely terrible pension.
Children need some prioritising as we do need adults with skills to run society when we are old ourselves. If parents don't have flexibility to parent and work then it makes raising successful children into adults a lot more difficult and society does breakdown.
Yes I chose to have children. That was an entirely selfish decision. But I was completely ignorant about how it would impact my career. What a total fool I was. I've recently experienced working with a very angry young mother who is raging about this very situation. Penny has dropped that now she has 2 dc under 3 her career cannot continue on the same trajectory and she's super angry. Her DH is carrying on as if nothing has changed. This seems to be the norm.

@Daphnise

No extra advantages for parents- they get enough already for their life choices.

Do tell what some of these advantages are? I can think of literally no advantages my with-children self has had over my no-children earlier self.

Having children is absolutely a choice, but looking them after they're here isn't. I'm not sure what the people who think it's unacceptable for a working parent to leave to look after a sick child should do - should they just not go get the sick child? Or quit their job so that their colleagues don't have the inconvenience of them going to pick up an ill child a couple of times a year?

Apparently you get all the holidays while childless people are cast out into Xmas-free hell without any leave, ever. Not even to go and watch sports day. Which is, as any fool knows, the highlight of one's year.

@sillysmiles

Some non parents get a bit weird about it all, like you just mentioning your parenting commitments is some unacceptable act

I don't think anyone minds anyone talking about their commitments, whether as a parent or carer or others, but the expectation that one persons commitments is more important than another's is more likely what gets people "bent out of shape".

See the thing is some commitments really are technically more important in the grand scheme of things (not just how they feel to the person affected). Picking up a small child from school on time is a legal requirement - perfecting your garden really can wait another ten minutes. I’m not trying to be awkward, just showing why some parents really do need to dig their heels in on occasion - they literally have to leave right on time.

Aye exactly. If you don't pick your kid up it's a £25 late fee and a referral to the welfare officer if it's bad/persistent. Someone's got to look after the kids.

Sofiamichelle

It wasn't my personal choice for dc to become disabled and my family to die. I've had to cope with the cards I've been dealt. But I do think lone parents in my position should be given greater flexibility than someone who doesn't have any caring responsibilities.

Fortunately my work agreed.

[quote MadeOfStarStuff]@vickyc90

Of course parents of under 11s have choices! they can pay for childcare, or their child’s other parent can do school runs or they can have help from their own parents or make arrangements to share cover with friends.[/quote]
That’s assuming they are not a single parent, that they have available parents, that they can pay for extra care. Even if your kid is at nursery til 6 you may still have to leave the office at 5 to make it in time.

Btw ... £25 is half a day's wage after tax and ni, on a tenner an hour ...

Now, I have two small kids. I really don’t want to work Christmas Eve evening or Boxing Day. But I’d be more than happy to work NYE and NYD because I wouldn’t likely have plans for these. So in this circumstance, considering I’d be willing to work one holiday entirely I do feel like I should get dibs on the Christmas shifts

The problem is that there might be too many people willing to work New Year and not enough willing to work Christmas. What then?

If it's done at random, or one year on then one year off, then that's fair at least, even if it won't satisfy everybody. But I used to hate the assumption that, as I didn't have kids, I clearly would rather be going out and getting hammered on NYE and so would prefer to work Christmas than New Year.

To be fair through I think there is a different need for those with caring responsibilities (for children or elderly parents etc) than there is for others. When I was in my 20s I booked a Russian course that I needed to leave on time for. I was in a busy job and didn’t always manage it so sometimes missed it. That was annoying but in no way had the same implication as missing a nursery collection for a toddler.

But, I don’t disagree that everyone should have access to request and holidays should be equal. young adults with no children etc have as much right want Christmas off as parents for example.

Also I remember seeing some incredibly bitter posts in our staff survey about the flexibilities afforded parents during lockdown. They never explained why they might have needed some hours away from work- they just ranted about perceived unfairness.

@BadLad

Now, I have two small kids. I really don’t want to work Christmas Eve evening or Boxing Day. But I’d be more than happy to work NYE and NYD because I wouldn’t likely have plans for these. So in this circumstance, considering I’d be willing to work one holiday entirely I do feel like I should get dibs on the Christmas shifts

The problem is that there might be too many people willing to work New Year and not enough willing to work Christmas. What then?

If it's done at random, or one year on then one year off, then that's fair at least, even if it won't satisfy everybody. But I used to hate the assumption that, as I didn't have kids, I clearly would rather be going out and getting hammered on NYE and so would prefer to work Christmas than New Year.

People have young children for a relatively short time in their lives. For those young children, unlike for older children or grown family members, Christmas morning and other traditions are not only really really important but have to be done at the 'right' time.

My immigrant father often ended up with the Christmas shifts despite having young kids (funny how that often happens), and it was so hard as a child. My mum would be running herself ragged trying to make it all 'magic' like the locals and meanwhile we'd be upset that daddy wasn't there to see what Santa had brought, or that he'd said he'd join us for dinner, but ended up being late when the next person didn't turn up to take over.

So yes, before having DCs of my own I accepted taking a hit for people with young DCs whether for Christmas or another celebration, and if I worked in a job needing Christmas cover I'd hope to have decent colleagues who'd support my family that same way.

I usually think there's issues for them when they do. Like maybe infertility or something.

I think this has to be one of the most patronising things I've read on MN in a good while! Us non-parents get tosh like this all the time and it needs to stop.

OP, I absolutely agree with your respondent. For years, parents have had generous allowances made for them and, of course, some have abused these and some have begun to feel entitled. In these new days of work/life balance, employers must be open to flexible working requests from all staff, for whatever reason or for no reason at all. If your clients want to attract the best candidates, surely a general, company-wide flexibility policy will appeal to more people, not just those with kids.

So yes, before having DCs of my own I accepted taking a hit for people with young DCs whether for Christmas or another celebration, and if I worked in a job needing Christmas cover I'd hope to have decent colleagues who'd support my family that same way.

So you had your turn of priority at Christmas when you had DCs of your own. Some people don't have children and might not want to spend every Christmas working, and they might not share your opinion that Christmas is more important for young children.

@Bunnycat101

Also I remember seeing some incredibly bitter posts in our staff survey about the flexibilities afforded parents during lockdown. They never explained why they might have needed some hours away from work- they just ranted about perceived unfairness.

This doesn’t surprised me. Although in our team it was the childless who disappeared for hours/days while the office was closed. I did resent that, as I was juggling my workload and at least one others on a daily basis while also trying to ensure my DS was carrying out his school work.

@BadLad

So yes, before having DCs of my own I accepted taking a hit for people with young DCs whether for Christmas or another celebration, and if I worked in a job needing Christmas cover I'd hope to have decent colleagues who'd support my family that same way.

So you had your turn of priority at Christmas when you had DCs of your own. Some people don't have children and might not want to spend every Christmas working, and they might not share your opinion that Christmas is more important for young children.

Do you truly work in a place where having no children means working every single Christmas without exception, while those with children never have to do anything around Christmas? If so, then that's crap but very unusual, certainly in healthcare, I've never seen it.

In any other case though, I'd still say it's reasonable for someone without children to end up working more Christmases (and before having kids, I didn't know I was going to have them so it wasn't like waiting for a turn ).
Adults can move around celebrations, even my very observant religious family still manage to make it work by choosing one of the many different services around the 25th.

Do you truly work in a place where having no children means working every single Christmas without exception, while those with children never have to do anything around Christmas? If so, then that's crap but very unusual, certainly in healthcare, I've never seen it.

In 15 years in the Civil Service (not health care) it was ALWAYS those without children working Christmas cover, while those with children could take the whole period off & not have to do even a single day's cover between Christmas & New Year. Same for holidays, they had priority without fail. I had to fight to go away for 4 days close to Easter because my Godfather uncle had died & I was the only close relative for my aunt & cousin (they lived 4-5 hours drive away).

Yes we had flexi working, so in theory I could take time off to allow for all the times I had to work weekends, stay late or start early to get work done because others couldn't, but I built up so much flexi leave I couldn't take it.

@Allergictoironing

Do you truly work in a place where having no children means working every single Christmas without exception, while those with children never have to do anything around Christmas? If so, then that's crap but very unusual, certainly in healthcare, I've never seen it.

In 15 years in the Civil Service (not health care) it was ALWAYS those without children working Christmas cover, while those with children could take the whole period off & not have to do even a single day's cover between Christmas & New Year. Same for holidays, they had priority without fail. I had to fight to go away for 4 days close to Easter because my Godfather uncle had died & I was the only close relative for my aunt & cousin (they lived 4-5 hours drive away).

Yes we had flexi working, so in theory I could take time off to allow for all the times I had to work weekends, stay late or start early to get work done because others couldn't, but I built up so much flexi leave I couldn't take it.

Yep. I didn't think it was at all unheard of.

Yes, it was crap, although the pressure I got was mostly guilt trips from my colleagues when I insisted on having Christmas off.

I don't think it's at all reasonable to expect people without children to work more Christmas shifts simply because they don't have children. They may be happy to, as you apparently were, overtherubicon, but if they don't want to do, they shouldn't have to.

I don't want to see any flexibility removed from working parents. It's important that they can go to pick up sick children, watch the nativity and all that. I don't think a workplace would be more productive if those things weren't allowed for.

I just want to see that same flexibility extended to everybody else. I'm very lucky as my director is incredibly laid back and promotes flexibility. But its a 2 way deal so we're all happy to work later or start earlier or whatever when it's needed, knowing we can take some time out when we need to.

As for Xmas, some people have a bizarre attitude. It's no more for children than it is anyone else. Hell would freeze over before I'd work it to enable others to have it off just because they don't want to work it.

I feel very strongly that work/life balance is important for everyone. When attracting good candidates I think a lot of employers have to reconsider their approach, if there's no reason to need a 9-5 presence then flexible working is a good mode for everyone- DC or not.

IME the animosity around who gets flexibility and when can be intolerable and it's fuelled by problem abusing it. It's not exclusive to those with DC but a lot of hatred is directed at parents because that's the perception. Aiming this kind of discussion at parents, or talking about parents vs child free people adds to that.

The work world would be a much happier and healthier place if employers embraced more flexibility.

The problem exists when cover beyond 9-5 is needed at short notice, not necessarily all the time but if you work in a job where scheduling is heavily affected by factors beyond your control then without kids you do end up picking up more slack. Maybe it's a job not suited to rigid parenthood with no other backup support, but would be fine for parents where grandparents do pickup etc, yet (some, not all by any means but enough that it leaves a grating sense of entitlement) parents seem to expect the inflexible job to flex for them which just means others picking up the slack and inevitably the slack catchers are the same people each time. If you suggested a job not being suitable due to that though some people would get their noses put way out of joint. No amount of flexible working would cover the 'servers have gone down at 4.45 and need to be back up and running before people go home' type scenario.

I think as well (again some) parents lose sight of what is actually a parenting emergency that any of us would be happy to cover them for - child falling ill or getting injured at school etc, and what is ultimately a choice - attending sports day/nativity play etc. Parent attending a child sports day is no more important on a societal level than a non parent attending their french class, arguably the french class is more important here as money will be lost out on if it's not attended.

Possibly the commenter worked in a workplace like mine over the pandemic, and saw the way in which flexibility was only applied to parents to enable them to be more present with their children. The parents where I work went down to 50% hours (on 100% pay) and when the workload doubled, the childless employees did hundreds of hours of unpaid overtime. Said employer has put out many, many bulletins about how family friendly they are, about how they responded to the COVID crisis by trying new working patterns to ensure their staff had maximum flexibility/work-life balance etc...

Left me with a feeling of, who am I, the office furniture?

Ultimately, flexibility for all is impossible. Pursuit of flexibility always leaves someone behind, and in my experience, it's always those without childcare commitments.

I wouldn't bother responding to a LinkedIn thread on your topic, OP, but I'd definitely roll my eyes at yet another campaign to give working parents more flexibility.

It's probably a sensitive subject for her, she may have been treated unfairly in the past due to being childfree and she's fed up?