To be narked by this woman’s attitude? Working parents v child free employees

[SJaneS49]

Not a biggie, at the moment I’ve got a lot going on in the background and am generally hacked of with the world .. but this response has generated a real ‘oh ffs’ reaction in me just now.

Expectations of working parents, especially women as typically (but not obviously always ) we have to date carried more of the childcare burden and been the ones taking the compromises has always been of interest to me & something I think we have got wrong in Britain. I posted something on LinkedIn earlier about how society expects parents to work as if they don’t have children and to parent as if they don’t work. Until I started working from home 14 years ago, that was my experience as a professional working in London, working all hours in the office while also being the sole parent at home, getting in about 7.30/8pm & going straight into helping out with homework.

So I put out a question on LinkedIn, asking parents if their recent experience of working in the new normal had changed what they themselves would be looking for in their next role in terms of flexibility of hours worked when or where they carried out their work. Plenty of employers are currently offering flexibility..but are pretty woolly & vague on what the expectations will be in the longer term. Quite possibly as a number haven’t really worked that out themselves yet! As well as interesting me on a personal level, as I advise my clients on how to make their roles more attractive, I wanted to gauge what changes 2020/21 had made to attracting candidates who if they were parents might not now (having experienced the opportunity to be more ‘present’) want to go back to how it was. Potentially!

Anyway. I have had a reply from someone who is child free who I worked with on a project years ago basically saying special measures should not be made for parents and therefore burdening their childless colleagues. Flexibility if it was being offered should be for all.

While I completely agree with her that parents should not be offered special measures or more flexible options than others, I wasn’t suggesting that at all! Which has me wondering whether this would read like this to others? This particular woman seems to spend a lot of her time writing ranty comments on LinkedIn posts judging by my feed so feeling a bit 🙄 about implications made in her post that the child free ‘carry’ more workload than working parents.

Basically, is she being a knob? Or was it fair enough! Just brought back memories of some of the attitudes around years ago of some of the women I worked with, making bitchy comments about women who had to head out at dead on 5 to relieve the childminder.

Not sure quite how many times I have to say that I don’t think parents should have any kind of preferential treatment when it comes to flexibility. That was not what I was suggesting, recommending or even indeed asking. The question was whether flexibility (which if it’s offered is always open to everyone!!) would make any difference to parents when it came down to selecting jobs to apply for or if it made no difference! I’m a Recruitment Consultant. Any roles I deal with that offer flexibility are open to absolutely everyone. Everyone. And candidates are shortlisted on abilities & experience.

And to the PP who suggested I was annoyed at the ‘whataboutery’, bang on seeing as I had written nothing about special measures.

@Wewereliars It is a lifestyle choice. You choose to have children and work.
Then you expect colleagues who are child free to support that choice.

I don't think it'll make much difference how many times you explain your already perfectly clear point OP. People are just here to bitch about their colleagues who are parents.

Some childless folks make all manner of assumptions about working parents. Eg I once had a colleague ask me what company policy was for taking time off to look after a cat, "because obviously parents get time off when their kids are sick so is it the same". I answered that I didn't know because I don't have a cat but I'm guessing it's the same as for parents ie it comes off your annual leave and is ok in an absolute emergency but you're expected to make arrangements outside of that. She was really surprised as she'd just assumed that parents were getting extra time off when in fact they weren't.

ohgiveup it is not a lifestyle choice, don't be so rude and ignorant.

The "child free" will be relying on the future workforce to run their public services and fund their pensions.

How do you think they will get there!

I think if you’re surveying parents, then you’re surveying parents.

But if you’re opening up a question on social media, you will get people put out that you’re not championing the ‘group’ they fit in.

Would say she’s not right or wrong.

I think it's perfectly fine to target your messages if it's pertinent to your business. I think what you've asked is fine...do working parents have a different perspective on the offer from prospective employers because of the last 18 months. A similar question would be very applicable to carers too. It's not a case of favouring, it's about not excluding a potential talent pool because you haven't thought about what's important to them and how compatible that is with a business. Generally people without caring responsibilities don't have flexibility in mind as a key job requirement even if it's something they'd like to take advantage of...whereas someone caring (for adults or children) alongside working can't ever escape the "how would this work in practical terms" element of any job.

My company are really trying to engage more with women in a particular segment of the business that's 80% male so their recruitment has focused on what would attract women to apply for the jobs. The best candidate still gets the position but opening up a conversation about how to attract women to apply was one of the first steps.

Unsurprisingly there was an uproar from the almost all male contingent from that section of the business outraged that the company were going to employ women as a token gesture at the expense of perfectly decent men candidates.

People need to stop being outraged at perceived privilege for a group that they aren't a member of and frankly wind their necks in.

Meh, she offered a different perspective which surely you'd be interested in if you wanted a balanced view on how x affects a team and what considerations would also benefit childfree staff.

@GivenUpEntirely ❤️

@VladmirsPoutine

I think it's perfectly fine to ask a question of a particular group of society. Imagine of the OP asked women if they feel safe walking home after a night out or whatever, imagine if a man said, "well actually, there're a few dark corners I like to steer clear off." It's perfectly fine that parents feel sometimes aggrieved that they don't get special treatment.

No I disagree. It's not the same. That's men derailing a convo. The woman who questoned OP is pointing out that her question plays into existing stereotypes (parents are more deserving/needy of flexibility) that ignore and can often harm child free peoples work life. OP can ask the questions she wants, sure, but someone else can point out that the way she has framed her question is perhaps limited and reinforcing harmful stereotypes.

I’m a parent but I don’t think non-parents should pick up the slack so I can work flexibly. My decision to have children doesn’t trump someone’s decision to do something else outside of work.

@Dudewheresmypetrol, eh well not really no! Any flexibility in a role would be apply to anyone taking that role, whether they had children or not. That employee would still be working from home. That employee could still work a 10-6.

@MeAndDebbieMcGee I realised in one conversation prior to my maternity leave that some of my colleagues thought that our employer (indeed, they seemed to think that all employers) offered a year of maternity leave at full pay. They were actually quite disbelieving that this isn't the case.

No she is not a knob. You asked about flexible working for parents and she pointed out not just parents should be entitled to or want flexibility. Why would that make her a knob?

@Hardbackwriter yes! I'd forgotten but now you mention it I've had similar conversations! Also comments from people where they clearly think childcare is free! Or that the employer pays for it!

For me the nub of it is that we couch it in terms of “flexible working” which implies some kind of continuum between work and life. That clashes with having kids, where we (I) simply don’t have the same number of hours available to devote to work as a childfree colleague. I think the two concepts get mixed up, and can cause massive resentment if not managed properly across a team.

The primary issue is that working days are just too long (probably for everyone) and actually pandemic has exacerbated that - unless you HAVE to log off at 6pm because you’ve got to look after your kids. The best solution is to properly resource your team so work can be completed in a reasonable number of hours - then people can flex those hours as they see fit. That’s hard if you’re not in control of staffing teams tho.

I’ve seen a lot more people being opinionated knobs on LinkedIn recently. I do wonder if they have forgotten that it’s a professional site with the specific purpose of enabling other professionals to judge them.

On the plus side, it makes it MUCH easier to narrow down a candidate pool

Yabu for doing yet another bloody flexibility and working norms poll on LinkedIn.

The members of my team who I worry about the most at the moment are the ones without children. They seem to be working extremely long hours, their days aren’t punctuated by school runs. I do think that flexibility is great for working parents and I personally have benefited from the home working situation, but yes flexibility should be for all. Just because I spend my spare time wrangling my offspring doesn’t make anyone else’s non working time less important.

As someone who’s worked before having children, and after, I can see both sides. I’ve worked in industries where shift work is the norm, working weekends is expected and late finishes/early starts are non negotiable.

Personally, when it comes down to it, I do think there should be a bit of give and take on both sides. When I didn’t have kids I genuinely didn’t mind working Boxing Day, for example. I had to work every NYE which was a drag but a contractual obligation. I’ve never worked in any industry where I’ve been able to book off solid blocks of time over Christmas so I guess you don’t miss what you don’t have.

Now, I have two small kids. I really don’t want to work Christmas Eve evening or Boxing Day. But I’d be more than happy to work NYE and NYD because I wouldn’t likely have plans for these. So in this circumstance, considering I’d be willing to work one holiday entirely I do feel like I should get dibs on the Christmas shifts.

I think if people are willing to compromise then it shouldn’t be an issue. However, I do think there are a lot of people who want every holiday off and it doesn’t matter if they have kids or not. There’s no compromise. It’s very much “I want one/two weeks off and why should I have to compromise because she has kids/she doesn’t have kids?” That’s the issue.

If everyone was willing to do an undesirable shift each, everyone would get something. Unfortunately, some people ruin it by trying to get everything and then it ends up with a situation where other people (ie management) have to make decisions for others. And usually when this happens, either no one at all is happy or one set of people get everything and the others get sweet fuck all.

And while I’m here, I’ll weigh in on the wider debate too.

I think flexible working should be prioritised for those with caring responsibilities. I don’t think there is an equivalency between someone having to care for their mum with dementia, and someone who just fancies more time to get their nails done. I think if there has to be a choice, then it should be in favour of community, not in favour of individuals.

Of course ideally workplaces would be staffed sufficiently for it not to be an issue and to be available for all.

@MeAndDebbieMcGee, I think I know what I asked (certainly better than you do!), I asked parents whether having experienced a different work set up and having had the chance to be more physically present whether jobs offering flexible working patterns and the opportunity to wfh/partially from home would now be more attractive ..or not.

It was about their preferences when it came to job searching and what they would give priority too.

Any job advertised as flexible is open to everyone.

Oh, and I don’t think during the regular working year others should pick up the slack for me having kids. I work part time hours so I can be flexible and make it work around my life. I’d never get a job and then demand others bend so I can do x, y and z because I have kids. With the nature of my job there isn’t work to bring home as all work must be done in the workplace and the work can’t be left for others to pick up. It’s very much “you work 8-6, there are x jobs to do in this time, ensure they’re done during this time”, and then someone else will start, say at 3-12, and they’ll have their own tasks to do in this time frame. Obviously sometimes there’s an overlap of what needs done and we’ll help each other, but there’s definitely no case of me leaving my workload for someone else to do on top of their own while I pick up the kids, for example. That’s just being a dick.

Apologies @MeAndDebbieMcGee, that was actually @Aprilx I was replying too

@OverTheRubicon, you’re probably not wrong! But it’s the increasingly Facebookalike ‘I’m so proud of my 16 year old..’ type posts that annoy me.

But I find it offensive that people call having children a lifestyle choice, how ridiculous. Without people having children the human race dies out, simple as that.

Ummm, I reckon if 'people' don't have kids the human race won't be budging any time soon.