Angela Raynor

[Pixxie7]

I think her comments today were spot on, although not really professional she makes a valid point.

Labour say (paraphrasing) “if you don’t believe X like we do then we don’t want your vote”. A number of Lab MPs are on record saying this with no consequence

Lib dems said this in 2019…easiest vote decision for me ever

Rufus

Totally agree

@elodie77

I will admit I am one of those parents whose child is at a private school on a significant bursary, because I felt it offered them the best education and therefore a better chance in a society that is so competitive and unfair, where housing and jobs are scarce.

I would still vote for Labour even if it meant my child couldn't continue at her private school. I would much rather the society was generally fairer and offered my child better opportunities so I didn't feel the need to send them to a private school to give them the best chance in life.

@elodie77 You're a hypocrite. in fact worse than a hypocrite as your happy to take for free what many parents pay a small fortune ( people like me) to send their kids to private, yet claim to happily pull your child out if labour shut them down. Bull shit. You went above and beyond to get that bursary - including handing over all your financial details and bank statements, declaring any big buys and wage rises, reapplying and submitting documents every year, securing a bursary is incredibly intrusive. A bursary that can be pulled at any time and doesn't secure your kids future at the school at all. This is not the behaviour of some one who would happily vote a party in to have their kids school place taken away.

Do as I say but not as I do hey?

I can't quite make out whether you're an idiot or just a wind-up

Can you stop attacking me personally

Elodie maybe take your own advice.

@elodie77 You're a hypocrite. in fact worse than a hypocrite as your happy to take for free what many parents pay a small fortune ( people like me) to send their kids to private, yet claim to happily pull your child out if labour shut them down. Bull shit. You went above and beyond to get that bursary - including handing over all your financial details and bank statements, declaring any big buys and wage rises, reapplying and submitting documents every year, securing a bursary is incredibly intrusive. A bursary that can be pulled at any time and doesn't secure your kids future at the school at all. This is not the behaviour of some one who would happily vote a party in to have their kids school place taken away.

Who said for free? And you know next to nothing about me and my motivations. The school offers bursaries, my child is nowhere near the only one - do you resent bursaries in general, or are the recipients obliged to vote Tory? I think here we have genuine politics of envy. And luckily we only had to submit the application once, they haven't asked again. And no 'big buys' here!

And don't you think children whose parents can't afford it are not deserving of a top quality education? If all schools offered that, there would be no need for private schools! In some countries that is the case...

I never said I would happily remove my child from the school - I said I would still vote Labour even if in the end that is what it meant.

A vote for Labour doesn't in my view automatically mean my child would lose their place. I doubt this particular school would go bust and I think they would continue to offer bursaries for less well off families.

But even if it did mean that yes I would absolutely 100% vote Labour because I believe in the common good. Do you?

Typo above, but I think you get my meaning. The best education shouldn't just be for those who can afford it.

Having paid full fees myself for my children. Why on earth would you risk their education by having the rug pulled under them if Labour got in Elodie77!

Its a sound bite to make you feel better but realistically there is no way you would give up their place without a fight. As a PP says - you must have spent ages putting an application together.

You either believe in private education or you dont. You are worse because you say you dont believe in it but are getting it for free!!

do you resent bursaries in general, or are the recipients obliged to vote Tory?

The irony.

I'm no fan of Boris and I don't vote Tory. Yes I absolutely do think he should apologise for many things. However, I don't agree with Raynor's approach. I want politicians who model good conduct and I want an opposition who take the moral high ground when the Government's behaviour needs holding to account. Raynor's name-calling just weakens her position, rather than strengthens it.

Why on earth would you risk their education by having the rug pulled under them if Labour got in Elodie77!

Because I believe they would make the society better and fairer than it is now.

Its a sound bite to make you feel better but realistically there is no way you would give up their place without a fight. As a PP says - you must have spent ages putting an application together.

WRONG on both counts.

By all means think I'm a terrible person, no problem, I am not trying to be perfect nor do I think I'm a particularly good person, but I DO strongly believe in a fair and equal society that gives opportunities for all, not just those born to privilege.

[quote elodie77]**@elodie77 You're a hypocrite. in fact worse than a hypocrite as your happy to take for free what many parents pay a small fortune ( people like me) to send their kids to private, yet claim to happily pull your child out if labour shut them down. Bull shit. You went above and beyond to get that bursary - including handing over all your financial details and bank statements, declaring any big buys and wage rises, reapplying and submitting documents every year, securing a bursary is incredibly intrusive. A bursary that can be pulled at any time and doesn't secure your kids future at the school at all. This is not the behaviour of some one who would happily vote a party in to have their kids school place taken away.

Who said for free? And you know next to nothing about me and my motivations. The school offers bursaries, my child is nowhere near the only one - do you resent bursaries in general, or are the recipients obliged to vote Tory? I think here we have genuine politics of envy. And luckily we only had to submit the application once, they haven't asked again. And no 'big buys' here!

And don't you think children whose parents can't afford it are not deserving of a top quality education? If all schools offered that, there would be no need for private schools! In some countries that is the case...

I never said I would happily remove my child from the school - I said I would still vote Labour even if in the end that is what it meant.

A vote for Labour doesn't in my view automatically mean my child would lose their place. I doubt this particular school would go bust and I think they would continue to offer bursaries for less well off families.

But even if it did mean that yes I would absolutely 100% vote Labour because I believe in the common good. Do you?[/quote]
Absolute hypocrite

I can not take anything you say seriously

And bursaries are always means tested so you will be asked to show your financial documents again. It seems you have not been in the school that long.

Labour believe in the common good do they? Righto.. 'male raspists should be allowed in to womens prisons' - Lisa Nandy. Do you believe that is the common good? Are you really going to vote for that?

There are other possibilities

The dc will finish school by the time the election happens

The pp is a Labour SM sound bite person - they sound like sound bites

It’s unlikely imo a parent wouldn’t mind taking a bursary child out - there’s a reason they wanted to avoid the state system to start with to apply.

@elodie77

Why on earth would you risk their education by having the rug pulled under them if Labour got in Elodie77!

Because I believe they would make the society better and fairer than it is now.

Its a sound bite to make you feel better but realistically there is no way you would give up their place without a fight. As a PP says - you must have spent ages putting an application together.

WRONG on both counts.

By all means think I'm a terrible person, no problem, I am not trying to be perfect nor do I think I'm a particularly good person, but I DO strongly believe in a fair and equal society that gives opportunities for all, not just those born to privilege.

Again - hypocritical.

but I DO strongly believe in a fair and equal society that gives opportunities for all, not just those born to privilege

So you there hand over months and months worth of bank statements/wage slips and contractually agree to be transparent in your spending and wage rises to get your child a private education

You fair and equal society mean you handing over your bank account so your kid can join in the top tier education system. Jesus this has really made me laugh

Look vote Labour all you want but feck off with your fair and equal shite because you dont even believe in yourself

I'm not commenting on my child's school again, there is no point. I don't owe you any explanation for that.

Labour believe in the common good do they? Righto.. 'male raspists should be allowed in to womens prisons' - Lisa Nandy. Do you believe that is the common good? Are you really going to vote for that?

Lisa Nandy did not say that. But trans rights/women's rights is a very complicated and divisive issue and the conversation needs nuance, not hysterical scaremongering.

I have also felt aligned quite strongly to the 'only born women are women' school of thought, but I've started questioning myself recently and the reasons why I think that. I do think, and always did, that trans people deserve rights and dignity too, and there have been appalling instances of violence, murder and discrimination of trans people.

I do think that some of the examples given of a trans woman in a women's prison are extreme examples - most trans women live normal lives and are in solidarity with women.

I think that the only way forward is to think more progressively about the rights and dignity of everyone.

Well you did bring it up to prove a point so you can only expect people to give opinions on it.

I agree with pp re protection of woman’s rights as paramount.

MarshaBradyo Yes, I offered a piece of personal information to illustrate a point about bursaries, but I think I've taken enough flak for that for now!

Getting ready to take more for the trans/women's rights issue.

@elodie77

I'm not commenting on my child's school again, there is no point. I don't owe you any explanation for that.

Labour believe in the common good do they? Righto.. 'male raspists should be allowed in to womens prisons' - Lisa Nandy. Do you believe that is the common good? Are you really going to vote for that?

Lisa Nandy did not say that. But trans rights/women's rights is a very complicated and divisive issue and the conversation needs nuance, not hysterical scaremongering.

I have also felt aligned quite strongly to the 'only born women are women' school of thought, but I've started questioning myself recently and the reasons why I think that. I do think, and always did, that trans people deserve rights and dignity too, and there have been appalling instances of violence, murder and discrimination of trans people.

I do think that some of the examples given of a trans woman in a women's prison are extreme examples - most trans women live normal lives and are in solidarity with women.

I think that the only way forward is to think more progressively about the rights and dignity of everyone.

I'm not commenting on my child's school again, there is no point. I don't owe you any explanation for that

Because you have just made a massive tit of your self

And no you are right Lisa Nandy did not say what I posted above - what she actually said when specifically asked about the case of a man jailed for five counts of child rape, who later transitioned to become a woman should they be allowed in a womens prison - Lisa Nandy replied I think trans women are women, I think trans men are men, so I think they should be accommodated in a prison of their choosing

So in other words Men who rape can 'choose' if they would like to housed with the women prisoners. And No, it really isn't that complicated OR scaremongering. Are you aware several women - including a woman prison officer have been sexually assaulted by transmen in prison?

Not one single transwomen was killed last year in the `UK. Not One. Yet TWO women (or more) A WEEK are murdered by men. Where is the solidarity for women off other women?

Transwomen** not transmen

@elodie77

I'm not commenting on my child's school again, there is no point. I don't owe you any explanation for that.

Labour believe in the common good do they? Righto.. 'male raspists should be allowed in to womens prisons' - Lisa Nandy. Do you believe that is the common good? Are you really going to vote for that?

Lisa Nandy did not say that. But trans rights/women's rights is a very complicated and divisive issue and the conversation needs nuance, not hysterical scaremongering.

I have also felt aligned quite strongly to the 'only born women are women' school of thought, but I've started questioning myself recently and the reasons why I think that. I do think, and always did, that trans people deserve rights and dignity too, and there have been appalling instances of violence, murder and discrimination of trans people.

I do think that some of the examples given of a trans woman in a women's prison are extreme examples - most trans women live normal lives and are in solidarity with women.

I think that the only way forward is to think more progressively about the rights and dignity of everyone.

In response to a question specifically regarding a man jailed for five counts of rape against a child who later transitioned to a woman, Lisa Nandy said:

“I believe fundamentally in people's right to self-ID.

'I believe the Gender Recognition Act strikes the wrong balance in relation to that.

'I think that crimes that are recorded should be recorded as that person wishes, having gone through that process, received support and self-identified.

'I think trans women are women, I think trans men are men, so I think they should be accommodated in a prison of their choosing.’

Yet TWO women (or more) A WEEK are murdered by men. Where is the solidarity for women off other women?

This is nothing to do with trans rights.

Yes it does. 58% of transwomen in prison are there for sexual assaults/rape compared to 17.6% of men in prison. Transwomen should not be placed in a womens jail.

Women are at high risk from males. Why should they be confined in prison with them too?

Evesgarden It is a really difficult topic, but the rights of a group of people shouldn't be restricted because of crimes committed by individuals. But I would probably say that the prison issue needs more thought.

However do you really think your rights are safe with Boris?

www.elle.com/uk/life-and-culture/a28505486/prime-minister-boris-johnson-voting-history/

[quote elodie77]Evesgarden It is a really difficult topic, but the rights of a group of people shouldn't be restricted because of crimes committed by individuals. But I would probably say that the prison issue needs more thought.

However do you really think your rights are safe with Boris?

www.elle.com/uk/life-and-culture/a28505486/prime-minister-boris-johnson-voting-history/[/quote]
Elodie77 you do only offer sound bites. We should of course "be kind' and use pronouns but in some circumstances sex based rights need to be kept - regardless if most transpeople are not sex offenders/preditors. Its to protect the women from the ones who are. The same goes for womens sports, which the Uk sports councils have just admitted it needs a serious review because of the unfair advantage and safety of men competing against women. Men should also not be allowed to insist on being female rape councillors - which we are seeing in Scotland, which will happen here too if Labour have their way. So its much much more at stake than males in female toilets of prisons.

However do you really think your rights are safe with Boris?

I think Boris is a bumbling knob however the Tories are the ONLY party not bending the knee to the tran right activists. And they are clever enough to know that the many many Labour women supporters that Labour told to leave are now seriously considering voting for them just to keep Labour out. Because it means that much to them.

And really - it isn't a difficult topic, its only difficult if you know fuck all about the situation. Discussing womens safety should never be a difficult topic.

*Elodie77 you do only offer sound bites. We should of course "be kind' and use pronouns but in some circumstances sex based rights need to be kept - regardless if most transpeople are not sex offenders/preditors. Its to protect the women from the ones who are. The same goes for womens sports, which the Uk sports councils have just admitted it needs a serious review because of the unfair advantage and safety of men competing against women. Men should also not be allowed to insist on being female rape councillors - which we are seeing in Scotland, which will happen here too if Labour have their way. So its much much more at stake than males in female toilets of prisons.

However do you really think your rights are safe with Boris?

I think Boris is a bumbling knob however the Tories are the ONLY party not bending the knee to the tran right activists. And they are clever enough to know that the many many Labour women supporters that Labour told to leave are now seriously considering voting for them just to keep Labour out. Because it means that much to them.

And really - it isn't a difficult topic, its only difficult if you know fuck all about the situation. Discussing womens safety should never be a difficult topic.*

Whereas you seem to find it difficult to debate without constantly resorting to personal attacks. And I think you haven't read all my comments here.

I think your view that giving some people more rights takes away from others is flawed and a very divisive way to look at it. I would be interested to know what your view is on LGBT rights in general. Also on other things. You accuse me of using soundbites, but I find your use of the term 'bending the knee' pejoratively potentially suggestive of your other views, especially given the criticism Keir Starmer has received for bending the knee in solidarity with BLM. Do you take issue with that too?

And they are clever enough to know that the many many Labour women supporters that Labour told to leave are now seriously considering voting for them just to keep Labour out.

And you trust the Tories to govern the country on that basis?