Angela Raynor

[Pixxie7]

I think her comments today were spot on, although not really professional she makes a valid point.

@elodie77. I don't in any way condemn you for doing your best by your children. But I would maintain that that's what Conservative voters are doing as well. The idea that all Tory voters are wealthy enough to look after their children as adults, is...😲 I don't think that's true at all. I doubt most tory voters are even wealthy. And most certainly don't send their children to private school. So you're a little more elite than them. 😉

Of course you don't have the answers. No one has the answers. If they did, we wouldn't have the problems we have. I would say that people are not separated by wanting different things in life. Most people want the same things. People are separated by their beliefs in how those things can best be achieved.

The idea that all Tory voters are wealthy enough to look after their children as adults, is...

Just to correct, that's not what I said, but that Conservatives who send their kids to private school probably have the means to provide for them for the future...(which I don't) but that is a generalisation too of course.

What I've tried to say here, and anywhere for the last few years is to try to question people who parrot things like 'Labour are unelectable', 'Labour have no policies', 'Labour policies are all pie in the sky', 'there is no credible alternative to the Tories' ad infinitum, because I think Labour does present a genuine, credible, viable alternative, and because I think most of these soundbites and character assassinations of Labour MPs are orchestrated by right wing media to discredit them and make it seem like there is no alternative to the increasingly authoritarian, neo-Conservative and incompetent (even potentially fascist) government that chips away at civil liberties, has utter contempt for the rule of law, engages in blatant cronyism, even tries to make voting more difficult for certain groups of people...things are going in a really alarming direction and I don't think now is the time to write off the opposition because of what the Daily Mail says but to look carefully at what they are actually proposing, and to look at what past Labour governments have achiveved (the NHS, social housing, minimum wage etc etc), even Tony Blair's.

Given how bad things are now, I really think Labour could do MUCH better!

Well I’ve said some of that and I’m not right wing media.

And I object to the term parrot ;

even potentially fascist

Elodie Could you enlarge on this please?

@Andante57

even potentially fascist

Elodie Could you enlarge on this please?

Yes.

Removing the right to protest peacefully, trying to silence impartial or dissenting media (BBC, Channel 4), trying to remove people's right to vote by the voter ID measures, using cronyism to create a climate in which success in business becomes connected with support for the governing party, attacks on the electoral commission, attacks on academic freedom, contempt for the rule of law as already said...

Well I don't know about peaceful protest, but they definitely haven't stopped disruptive protest.

The Insulate lot are still at it - blocking the M25. I can't believe that hasn't played a part in the fuel crisis.

Meanwhile almost complete silence from the media on the worst aspect of that bill. The persecution of travellers.

@MarshaBradyo

And I object to the term parrot ;

So do i, its fucking rude, smacks of ‘you don’t know anything about politics’

They are unelectable at the moment…they are not a strong opposition. They should be pinning the tories to the wall and they aren’t

And i can think that the tory government is utter utter shite and think that labour are currently a shite opposition AT THE SAME TIME

Its amazing i know 😀 its a concept some people struggle with

I like parrots though…

The Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill hasn't come into effect yet, but when it will, there will be serious ramifications for the right to protest and, as you say, for travellers.

@elodie77 I absolutely agree with you. Really good post.
So much pearl clutching on this thread. People 'offended' by the word parroting I think you need to get a grip. People do 'parrot' that Labour are unelectable whilst the current government is essentially corrupt. Constant refrain that Labour don't listen but then can't qualify in what way and imply the tories do. Banging on about the 'red wall' voters when few have ever stepped out of their little london bubble. I don't like AR 's politics or her public demeanor but to call her common, gobby, thick as pig shit and then bang on about tories understanding the w/c beggars belief. Plenty of hypocrisy on here.

Most of the people I know bemoaning Labour being unelectable certainly aren't pleased about that. Quite the opposite. It's bad. Very bad. Even committed Conservatives I know want a strong opposition.

For many people, it comes from frustration and even despair.

For the record I think that Keir himself isn't too bad. He definitely has his faults but he seems like the best of a bad bunch.

He has some bad ideas but some decent ones too. (Burnham might also be ok but only if he drops the Professional Northerner stoking regional division thing).

Problem for him is he's hamstrung by those still caught up in the cult of Corbyn. I may be wrong though. Giving him too much credit? The failure to stand up to misogyny is concerning. I tell myself it's because he lacks party support on the issue?

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

I like parrots though…

Me too. All birds actually.

So much pearl clutching on this thread. People 'offended' by the word parroting hmm I think you need to get a grip

Oh wait

Is this what elodie means by parroting?

Ahhhh i getcha now

And what tealights said both times

@Tealightsandd did you watch Starmers conference speech ? Many commentators were impressed, even right leaning ones. Corbyn has gone now thank god. An old style socialist leader like him will struggle to be elected from now on. People need to move on and let KS make labour electable again, give him a chance but also be more critical of the Tories.

Yes his speech wasn't bad.

I think, although, overt socialism will never appeal to many, the main problem with Corbyn wasn't that. It was the racism and aggressive militantism.

Don't understand @RufustheBadgeringReindeer.
More importantly are you happy with the Tories ? What's worse, spaffing billions of taxpayers money on test and trace to cronies or crude language ? what's worse - bunging 40 million to a property developer (Jenrick) or using crude language ? Get your priorities right maybe ?

Yes I agree. I think you could liken elements of momentum with UKIP. Just different ends of the spectrum, equally fervent and misguided, maybe emanating from the same frustrations tbh.

@Einzweitrois

Don't understand *@RufustheBadgeringReindeer*. More importantly are you happy with the Tories ? What's worse, spaffing billions of taxpayers money on test and trace to cronies or crude language ? what's worse - bunging 40 million to a property developer (Jenrick) or using crude language ? Get your priorities right maybe ?

What part of the tories are utter utter shite are you struggling with?

Where have i said I objected to crude language

Its not my priorities that are the problem

attacks on academic freedom

Elodie - insisting on freedom of speech in universities is hardly an attack on academic freedom.

Everything else you mention could apply to a communist government (apart from ‘ trying to remove people's right to vote by the voter ID measures’ as people don’t have the right to vote with or without ID in communist countries).
But I suppose ‘fascist’ has a more emotive ring to it.

[quote Einzweitrois]@elodie77 I absolutely agree with you. Really good post.
So much pearl clutching on this thread. People 'offended' by the word parroting I think you need to get a grip. People do 'parrot' that Labour are unelectable whilst the current government is essentially corrupt. Constant refrain that Labour don't listen but then can't qualify in what way and imply the tories do. Banging on about the 'red wall' voters when few have ever stepped out of their little london bubble. I don't like AR 's politics or her public demeanor but to call her common, gobby, thick as pig shit and then bang on about tories understanding the w/c beggars belief. Plenty of hypocrisy on here.[/quote]
The majority of this country doesn’t live in a little London bubble, yet Labour still took a battering in the last GE. If they’re not, at the moment unelectable, why aren’t they reaching any where near the level of being elected?

Constant refrain that Labour don't listen but then can't qualify in what way and imply the tories do.

Labour say (paraphrasing) “if you don’t believe X like we do then we don’t want your vote”. A number of Lab MPs are on record saying this with no consequence. No listening, no compromise. I’ve never heard a Conservative say the same but I could imagine if they did they’d be pulled into rank pretty sharpish. Along the same lines I’ve seen plenty of times, both on here and elsewhere, including in “real life” conversations “if you voted Tory, remove me from your friend list/we are no longer friends/would never date a Tory” etc yet never see the same from the other side. Disagreement, yes. Scorn, yes. But never a blanket “you’re dead to me”.

Andante57 Freedom of speech

bylinetimes.com/2021/08/19/the-government-is-crying-crocodile-tears-over-free-speech-on-campuses/?fbclid=IwAR3OkBNU6pc3MzxHVMHYxgfdiqOBdOXYmavDgIUzcGDYfMzTuTqNyrQFw6c

Are for the rest of your post, I can't quite make out whether you're an idiot or just a wind-up. As you can probably tell, I'm a bit fed up trying to argue with the likes of you.