To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

BMI is a pike if shit, even the consultants on my ward agree. However, I thought cico wasn't working for me after I had DC but once I stopped breastfeeding and went vack to work, despite eating almost the same amount I started losing the weight. Being on my feet all day at work obviously helps. So if like me it's too difficult to change your diet, I would say at least try to increase exercise.

@NiceGerbil

'If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.'

Massively restricting a food group is a diet you silly Billy!

Every way of eating is a diet. Your diet is what you eat. It can be either good or bad. If you think that I ever said that what you eat isn’t relevant, you’ve spectacularly missed the point. Of course it is. Just not in the way that we are told it is.

Also, please show the evidence that we NEED to eat whole grains, other than that which comes from cereal manufacturers who somehow convinced us that eating 30 g of puffed rice and sugar for breakfast is healthy.
And do you tell vegetarians that they are ‘cutting out an entire food group’? The food groups thing is something that someone made up as a way to categorise food. It doesn’t correspond to essential things we need to eat.

I do think exercise burns calories so if you are more active but eat the same, you probably will lose a little bit of weight. Eating carbs fuels physical activity so, as others have said, if you are eating lots of carbs, you do need to be active or you will gain weight (which is probably partly what happened with many in lockdown). But eating plans that rely on someone doing 15000 steps a day when that isn’t part of their job or natural routine are also a bit doomed because most people would find it unrealistic to exercise for that amount of time daily. The body doesn’t just try to make you eat more when you’re restricting calories, it also tries to slow down your physical activity. This is why I think the approach on weight loss shows is so damaging. They give them a very low cal low fat diet of 1500 calories and force them to work out hard (to the point of vomiting) for four hours a day. Their poor bodies and who would ever be able to keep that up in everyday life?

on a personal level we do not need to eat grains, though whole grain is nutricious beyond just delivering carbs.
however on a population level we absolutely need to eat grains - there is just not enough food around to feed the worlds population.

The microbiome also plays a role. It's the community of bacteria we have in the gut and everyone's is different. Some people have gut bacteria that are more or less efficient at taking the energy and nutrients from food. So two people could eat a piece of cheese and basically one shits out some of the calories and the other absorbs them.

Bariatric surgery can also make it hard to access enough nutrients to stay healthy. If you can only eat a few spoonfuls at a time, they night not have all you need. It's possible to be obese but malnourished!

CICO Does work you can't argue that. But your metabolism slows down and thinks your in starvation mode so hangs onto as many calories as it can. It slows every time you diet hence bring harder and harder to shift weight.

There was something on BBC2 years ago where a doc investigated identical twins where one was a healthy weight the other overweight. Despite genetic tests, bone scans and medical history checks it concluded they the only thing that makes people overweight is eating too much.

They did find out in most cases that an emotional incident had caused the overweight twin to eat more to bring comfort, which became a habit long after any emotional distress had ceased.

They found that retraining yourself to eat healthy meals and not snacking helped kill the habit of overeating.

I know not everyone approves of the idea but I use supplements so can concentrate on eating a low calorie, low carb diet of food I actually like without having to count my macros and worry I'm missing something.

A woman's multi, fish oil and a protein shake every day. Extra iron when I'm on my period. That covers off most things IMO.

The “starvation mode” stuff has been disproved. As you weigh less your calories burned while moving are equally less.
Over generous portion sizes are an easy habit to get into and hard one to get out of.
The “diet” industry books/foods have no reason for a person to succeed. Frustrating situation as manual labor and jobs decline.

I've found this thread really interesting.
I think it's pretty clear that sugar and processed carbs are doing no one any good and are downright damaging to those of us who are more susceptible to their effects. But then, even eating in a lowish carb way isn't exactly easy as so much of society is set up around allowing ourselves 'treats'. It's really not very easy to opt out of eating cake, having an ice cream etc... as people seem to take offence. Even quietly just not taking a piece of cake will usually attract comments along the lines of how 'good' you're being. I actually think it's why intermittent fasting works so well for me as it's pretty easy to fit around social occasions and people don't particularly notice you're doing it. But then, I also think exercise plays a far more important role in weight loss and maintenance than is often stated. I'm a runner and don't think I'd have lost weight without it (and certainly wouldn't have maintained it) as I'd have to eat an unsustainably small amount. As long as I'm doing a certain amount of mileage, I find that I can eat more or less whatever I want (obviously within reason) and maintain my weight.

Ultimately dieting whichever method you choose including surgery will only work as long as you make a lifetime change.

Meals out, celebrations and holidays have to be doable otherwise people get into that 'fail' mentality and revert back to old habits.

Although old notions on why we put on weight have changed I don't think you can ultimately take away personal responsibility. It is my responsibility to own my weight and I make that choice daily as to what to buy and eat.

I also don't buy into one diet or surgery works for all. We are all different and have different relationships with food.

@PermanentTemporary

It's not bollocks in itself but I do believe in the obesogenic environment. The food industry has run rampant in this country for decades and has successfully changed the culture to one of constant eating, that in many cases you are morally at fault if eg your children aren't constantly snacking.

I think this is a large part of the issue. The whole culture around food has changed hugely since about the seventies. It wasn’t usual to snack . People didn’t eat out as a rule. Meals were cooked from scratch much more often and people Knew how to cook. Fizzy drinks weren’t as normalised. Alcohol wasn’t drunk routinely at home . We now have a completely different culture. Much more processed food, portions are much bigger. People eat constantly all day long. They move less at home because there are more labour saving devices . People sprawl on sofas or game, whilst drinking every night and snacking between meals. At work there is much more computer based activity which is sedentary. If you watch TV from before the eighties it is really noticeable how much slimmer everyone is. There is no point dieting and then going back to bad habits. There needs to be a complete and permanent change in lifestyle.

The main reason cico didn’t work for me for years is simply because I was underestimating calories and getting all the fad diets confused. Portion sizes too big, trying to eat low carb but eating too much cheese, skipping meals but snacking later on because I thought i’d saved the calories, eating back exercise deficit- overestimating that deficit.

So I signed up for meal delivery. 3 meals a day plus a snack. 1200 calories.

Lost 20lbs in 2 months with no exercise. It set that eating pattern and I got used to quantities so i am maintaining easily. I have a stone to go so will maintain for a month due to being away, work etc then do another month of meals, with exercise this time.

It’s no magic metabolic bullet. It’s eating sensibly, smaller portions, lots of fruit and veg.

@Nomoreusernames1244

The main reason cico didn’t work for me for years is simply because I was underestimating calories and getting all the fad diets confused. Portion sizes too big, trying to eat low carb but eating too much cheese, skipping meals but snacking later on because I thought i’d saved the calories, eating back exercise deficit- overestimating that deficit.

So I signed up for meal delivery. 3 meals a day plus a snack. 1200 calories.

Lost 20lbs in 2 months with no exercise. It set that eating pattern and I got used to quantities so i am maintaining easily. I have a stone to go so will maintain for a month due to being away, work etc then do another month of meals, with exercise this time.

It’s no magic metabolic bullet. It’s eating sensibly, smaller portions, lots of fruit and veg.

What was the meal delivery you used out of interest? Gousto for example has a lot of meals which are very calorie laden.

@Washeduponthebeach

Diet chef. It had an offer on so was much cheaper than the others. It’s not cordon bleu, but the breakfast, lunches and snacks are great. I’m veggie so the evening meal choice is restricted and a couple aren’t that nice but you can choose alternatives easily enough.

There was something on BBC2 years ago where a doc investigated identical twins where one was a healthy weight the other overweight. Despite genetic tests, bone scans and medical history checks it concluded they the only thing that makes people overweight is eating too much

The thin twin also did something recently where he only ate ultra processed food for a month following his usual only eat when hungry rule. The results were truly shocking. Most shocking of all were the brain scans where many many new connections had been made in the part of the brain responsible for ‘reward’ linked to the food, and they were still there 6 months after her returned to a normal diet.

I gave up sugar and processed foods in March. The cravings have almost gone away but I still spend a ridiculous amount of time where my brain has images of sweets, biscuits pizza etc. I don’t want to eat them anymore but my brain is still focusing on them.

If any of you are dog trainers and have a clicker take it around your local supermarket and just click every time you see something that is positioned to make us buy high calorie snacks. Get someone to add up the clicks with you. You can usually have 3 or 4 clicks before you’ve even got through the front door with adverts. Another click at the door with the Christmas chocolates, over to the right before you’ve reached the baskets are the crispy crepe donuts, bags of sweets by the scanning devices. That’s 5 or 6 points of temptation before you even get 5m into the store. Couple this with all the happy connectors in our brain linked to food the odds are not in favour of not being obese.

Some of the research could be quite depressing and demotivating for obese people, couldn't it ? Diets don't work, so don't bother and if you ignore that and do lose weight, you are always going to have to eat less than your friend who was never overweight. Cheery stuff !

There was something on BBC2 years ago where a doc investigated identical twins where one was a healthy weight the other overweight. Despite genetic tests, bone scans and medical history checks it concluded they the only thing that makes people overweight is eating too much

If this refers to the Van Tulleken twins (who do a lot of BBC documentaries), then neither of them has a history of being overweight, even if one of them happened to be a little heavier when making that documentary. Of course eating a lot of food causes weight gain. I am not disputing that someone who ate pizzas for 3 months would gain weight. But first of all, it matters what people eat because 2500 calories of one thing will not have the same impact as 2500 calories of something else. Nor will it be the same between two people - some bodies will store the calories whereas others will eg raise body temperature and get rid of them that way. Second, hormones and genetics play a strong part in determining what weight your body wants to be and it will adapt in various ways to try to make you that weight and it's very difficult to fight against that. That is overlooked in the 'it's all just due to overeating and you just need to stop eating so much' narrative.

@SofiaMichelle

How on earth can CICO be bollocks?

People are actually arguing against the law of Conservation of Energy, and mathematics itself.

Utterly mind boggling.

@SofiaMichelle

Have you even bothered to read any of the links provided on this thread?

Like most people I dislike Katie Hopkins however her experiment did work.
You very rarely see an active healthy person who is obese unless they've a ferocious appetite too.
My nephew eats 4500 calories he works out for 60 minutes x 2 a day he is lean not an inch of fat.

[quote Nomoreusernames1244]@Washeduponthebeach

Diet chef. It had an offer on so was much cheaper than the others. It’s not cordon bleu, but the breakfast, lunches and snacks are great. I’m veggie so the evening meal choice is restricted and a couple aren’t that nice but you can choose alternatives easily enough.[/quote]
Thank you!

I don't have a microwave. Will it work just heating the meals in the oven?

@frumpety

Some of the research could be quite depressing and demotivating for obese people, couldn't it ? Diets don't work, so don't bother and if you ignore that and do lose weight, you are always going to have to eat less than your friend who was never overweight. Cheery stuff !

That's true if you think diet is only about losing weight. But if you look at overall nutrition and think about fitness more than fatness, then there are good reasons to reduce overly processed food, have a good variety of fresh vegetables and get fitter, even if you stayed just the same size (though you probably wouldn't.)

Hopefully in the near future scientists will develop a hormone replacement to combat the hunger hormones.

@frumpety

Some of the research could be quite depressing and demotivating for obese people, couldn't it ? Diets don't work, so don't bother and if you ignore that and do lose weight, you are always going to have to eat less than your friend who was never overweight. Cheery stuff !

It should drive the medical industry to change their approach, it is not working is it, people are being treated as if they are greedy and lazy, and whilst some people are, it ignores and fails people whose hormones, genetics, physiology and even psychology does not fall in to the broad brush that is applied.

And it is distressing to work out 1-2 hours a day and eat 1200 cals and take a year to lose 10 pounds, (whilst a pp for example has a brother who eats 4500 cals and is lean) and then to have 5 days of eating moderately and put on the stone you have taken a year to lose.

I have hashimoto, I have pcos, possibly have lipodema, it is really hard to lose weight for me, I genuinely don't eat much, I am not lazy, I do exercise, I don't lose weight easily, 1 meal out can put on several pounds, it is distressing.

@HairBobbles

Totally agree. I travelled once with friends. One overweight one not. We all ate the same for weeks and loved the same and the overweight one put on more weight and normal weight stayed the same. There’s so much we don’t understand about the gut and weight and obesity. Whilst there are obese people who sit around munching burgers and chocolate all day it’s not true in many cases and fat shaming is terrible. Low carb and intermittent fasting is best chance to maintain I reckon.

Metabolism? Overweight people burn fewer calories.