To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

Well yes there is that.

I believe that there are loads of factors that affect how we gain and lose weight. I don't think it is as simple as CICO - well it isn't for me anyway. I think our bodies use food differently. Some people need to walk loads of steps per day, exercise religiously, and keep a strict diet in order to maintain a weight that is still classed as "overweight" in terms of BMI. Others eat McDonald's every day, barely pass 3000 steps all day and never walk more than a minute and manage to maintain their weight.

I eat, on an average day, more calories at a BMI of 24 than I did at an obese BMI 36. I don’t usually bother with counting cals anymore but just checked for today and around 2500. The difference is in what I eat and when I eat. Low carb with plenty of healthy fats and veg and a moderate amount of protein in a 6 or 8 hour window. Unlike my obese days of feeling hungry most of the time, that’s no longer a problem. The Obesity Code explains a lot of the science but is ££. A useful summary is available on Amazon for free if you have kindle unlimited or 79p otherwise.
I don’t think anyone including the OP is arguing against the basic premise of CICO. The point is that some people can do a CICO deficit and get to a target but maintaining is very difficult if you are constantly fighting near impossible levels of craving. Sure, some can, but all the statistics on regain show these people are the exception.

I haven't read the whole thread, apologies, but would recommend Why Calories Don't Count by Giles Yeo (a Cambridge scientist working on metabolism). He also has a good podcast. (In short, his research shows that, while calories do affect weight loss/gain, there is a world of difference between 100 cals of broccoli and 100 cals of sugar, not only in nutritional value but also in terms of the actual calories we get from the food).

For me, what works is no UPF, no alcohol, carbs only from veg and a small quantity of pulses. About 10 days a year I eat and drink whatever I want (Christmas, birthday etc) the rest of the time I largely stick to that. I don't restrict fat or protein at all. I feel much better than I did when I was eating large quantities of carbs and I am never hungry.

@Brian9600
Couldn’t be without my no carb gin!
Yes, your 100 cals in Broccoli won’t spike your blood sugar leading to more cravings whereas 100 cals of sugar will.

[quote Scottishflower65]@Honestopinion23
I’ve really enjoyed this thread OP. You have distilled a lot of the latest advances in understanding obesity extremely well. Sorry if I missed it but do you work in healthcare of some sort? Well done on keeping off the 43 pounds of fat. I’m guessing a lot of that was visceral fat which low carb seems to almost target? I also add in some seasonal natural carbs for some days in late Summer / Autumn, mainly from my garden. So some potatoes and fresh fruit. Followed by some intermittent fasting, usually 18 hours to reset the insulin levels. There is a lot of evidence re the health benefits of fasting. Quoting from another academic article -
“Evidence is accumulating that eating in a 6-hour period and fasting for 18 hours can trigger a metabolic switch from glucose-based to ketone-based energy, with increased stress resistance, increased longevity, and a decreased incidence of diseases, including cancer and obesity.” (de Cabo and Mattson, 2019).
Interesting how they refer to obesity as a disease.[/quote]
Thank you! No, don’t work in healthcare but have developed an interest in the research. Yes, I have lost loads of visceral fats. Your diet sounds great and I also add in the odd bit of fruit and sweet potato so it’s not at keto level but it makes such a difference not eating grains and sugar.

Scottishflower65, can you give 2 example daily diets, 1) from when you ate a small amount of calories but didn't lose weight from obese status & 2) now that you eat a lot of calories but maintain a BMI = 24.

I'm intrigued!

@IIjkk
Now -
Brunch (Between 12-2pm)
3 eggs, two slices of Hovis low carb bread with full fat butter. One plant derived protein shake with an large avocado, teaspoon of turmeric, teaspoon of apple cider. Calories about 1000.

Mid afternoon snack of cheese, a couple of oatcakes with butter and mixed nuts. Couple of squares of very dark choc. About 400 cals.

Dinner (6pm)
Homemade any above ground veg with cream. Usually made with bone stock. Chicken thighs (6) with creamed spinach. Greek yogurt with a handful of berries. Calories about 1100.

Now having large Gin and tonic - use a tonic with no carbs. 300 cals.
So total without the gin 2500 cals, 2800 cals with gin.

Usually always have the protein shake but the rest varies.

When I first started low carb, I would bake with almond flour to get a cake hit. However, after a few days, as OP has mentioned, you just don’t crave sweet things anymore.

Before when Obese
Breakfast
Bacon roll with low fat spread 350 cals.

Lunch
Sandwich from M&S 300 cals.

Dinner
Tuna pasta, chicken and potatoes / rice (or low fat meal ready meal) and dessert such as lemon tart or fruit. 600 cals

Supper
One slice of Cheese on toast 200 cals

So total 1450 cals if no gin consumed. 1750 with gin.

The homemade bit for dinner is soup. So cauliflower, broccoli, mushroom etc

PM

I did super pow calories a few years back and spent my days mainly sleeping. I lost a lot of weight. When lockdown happened I went back to old habits though and ate food like there was no tomorrow snd started working again so didn't have time to hide away and sleep. Fat again now

Low*

@Scottishflower65

...Chicken thighs (6) with creamed spinach.

The (6) is a typo, surely?

@SofiaMichelle sorry should say 6oz chicken thighs so 2. I save the bones for soup stock for next few days.

This shape to that shape. 18-20 to 10. Post menopausal, 6 kids. No filters tho I hope I’ve chopped off identifying features!

Need to stress the weight loss and smaller size etc is very secondary to the health benefits. Much better blood pressure, resting heart rate, heart recovery, Vo2 max, not being pre diabetic, able to run up hills, etc is my measure of health.

Of course it makes sense that weight loss is more or less impossible once morbidly obese and a person's metabolism, hormones, blood sugar, gut health etc. is completely fucked, and fighting them every step of the way.

The best approach is prevention - supporting people to stay at a healthy weight, and act quickly if they start to gain.

But IRL and on here that doesn't happen. There's outrage when a medical professional tries to talk to a parent about their children's weight, and lots of reassurance that BMI is crap, they're solid muscle, they're probably due a growth spurt.

As an adult try dieting when you still look OK in clothes but your middle section is getting wobbly. People IRL are all 'pfft don't be silly, you look great! Have a piece of cake!'. On here: size 16 isn't even big, it's average!

With so many people now overweight and obese it can be quite a minefield to not want to be, people (unconsciously I think) take it personally and work against you in subtle and not so subtle ways.

Another common sabotage is overweight people telling you you're looking 'gaunt' or unwell as you approach healthy weight.

Obesity has spiralled in the last 50 years and the human body hasn't evolved in that time, our diets and lifestyles have. ... We all think cereal for breakfast is normal, there was nothing normal about cereal 100 years. Carbohydrates form the bulk of the average diet which won't make anyone feel full for long.

Commercial cereal for breakfast was popularised in the 1860s. People had been eating warm cereals like porridge for many hundreds of years.

Many things have changed, but the problem is not porridge.

'If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.'

Massively restricting a food group is a diet you silly Billy!

@NiceGerbil
Low carb, no processed is not a diet. It’s a choice to return to a much more natural way of eating.

Of course it's a diet.

It is altering your diet, in order to try and lose weight, by massively restricting a major food group.

By your definition most diets are a choice!

Most ways of eating are a choice unless restricted by external factors such as availability of food or budget etc. A ‘Diet’ is a silly word, much encumbered by the undertone that a diet means something to help losing weight and encourages the discrimination against people who appear heavier then a “standard” size. Most food choices are a choice, bounded by factors, such as costs, but still a choice. I think we, OP and others, are trying to help posters via education and evidence, and not baseless assertions.
Do share your pics!

Food choices in the present do influence future weight loss or gain. Advocating INFORMED choices is not a diet per se.

CICO at its mostasic level does work. Ever since homo sapiens first walked the Earth, we've known that if you continue to not ingest enough food, you end up dieing of starvation.

But food isn't just about calories. It's also about vitamins and minerals and so on. 100 calories of broccoli isn't the same as 100 calories of sugar.

I got a referral to the dietician because I have had low iron and low B12 in the past, as well as high cholesterol, high blood pressure and high blood sugar, and often things which are good for one (e.g. red meat good for iron isn't so good for cholesterol, dried apricots good for iron, not so much for blood sugar, etc.) I eat a fairly broad diet, including lots of vegetables, but I think there must be some adjustments I can make, that I can get all the necessary nutrients from the food I eat and also not increase risk factors in health, and I don't want to eat nothing but kale, even though I like it. But all the dietician would talk about was losing weight, and offered to refer me to WW or SW, and didn't answer my actual questions at all. I can lose weight - I am slowly losing weight. But I want to make sure I am getting enough nutrients as well.

And on top of actual nutrition, food feeds other senses. Sometimes, I want something nice and crisp like an apple or celery. But sometimes I want something the soft, springy, chewy texture of bread or a doughnut. Or a creamy texture. Or crunchy. And then there's the smell and flavour.

And the social and ritual aspects of food. I don't think a blow-out once in a while for Christmas and birthdays is bad, but I think we get special meals far more often than a century or more ago, and if it's happening fortnightly or weekly, when it was once once quarterly or something, it does add up.

So I don't think CICO can work unless you also looking at the other aspects of diet. Otherwise, you could lose weight by eating just 1000 calories a day of sliced white bread and nothing else. But you might die of beri beri or scurvy or something instead of obesity issues.