To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

@EmeraldShamrock

Hopefully in the near future scientists will develop a hormone replacement to combat the hunger hormones.

already exists. saxenda, mysimba

presciption only and very effective but very expensive with lots of side effects and once you stop the medication you will be back to old habits unless you somehow find that willpower and discipline to keep going without the medication.

WhatATimeToBeAlive

HairBobbles

Totally agree. I travelled once with friends. One overweight one not. We all ate the same for weeks and loved the same and the overweight one put on more weight and normal weight stayed the same. There’s so much we don’t understand about the gut and weight and obesity. Whilst there are obese people who sit around munching burgers and chocolate all day it’s not true in many cases and fat shaming is terrible.
Low carb and intermittent fasting is best chance to maintain I reckon.

Metabolism? Overweight people burn fewer calories.

Where is your source for this?

I do agree that metabolism plays a huge part but as far as I am aware, where no health issues impacting metabolism a heavier person actually burns more calories (according to nhs for example) than a lighter person by virtue of carrying more weight and running a larger body.

But my metabolism is fucked by hashimoto and pcos. But it is these conditions causing my weight, not my weight making me use less calories iyswim.

The Internet is filled with lifestyle grifters who don't have any relevant credentials .

Changing one's eating habits is far more difficult than going to the gym. But our bodies will store surplus energy as fat. You have to be in a modest caloric deficit to lose weight. Fad diets usually lead to it all going back on.

Metabolism? Overweight people burn fewer calories.

The opposite is true. Look at a TDEE calculator. A 5ft6 9st woman with a sendentary job burns 1540 calories/day. At 18st she burns 2226.

The body has to work much harder the more weight it carries, particularly fat around the organs.

@Dozer

An interesting podcast on this kind of thing is Maintenance Phase.

Debunks, for example, Keto Diet (invented as a trial for children with epilepsy in the early 20th century, no scientific evidence), Weight Watchers.

Love that podcast and listen to every episode. It's a fascinating look at the weight loss industry.

@EmeraldShamrock

Like most people I dislike Katie Hopkins however her experiment did work. You very rarely see an active healthy person who is obese unless they've a ferocious appetite too. My nephew eats 4500 calories he works out for 60 minutes x 2 a day he is lean not an inch of fat.

No. She has never had a weight problem and in fact was bordering on underweight. She spent a short time cramming herself with excess calories and gained weight. She actually had to massively increase calorie intake because her initial 'fat person diet' of around 3000 calories didn't cause her to gain any noticeable weight despite being in a clear surplus of calories. She instead forced herself to eat about 6000 calories a day by eating constantly and then gained quite a bit of weight. When she lost the weight, she found that she was heavier at the end than she was at the outset, although I seem to recall that she said that it wasn't a bad thing because she had been so slim before. So, no her experiment proves absolutely fuck all. And do you think that overweight people eat 6000 calories a day and shovel food down their throat constantly? Because that's not true.

@Honestopinion23 reminds me of Supersize Me. Analysis of the results showed he was eating on average 5000 calories a day, and really he should have put on far more weight in the 30 days eating McDonald's than he did. Plus when he went on a 'detox' vegan diet after filming, it took a full 14 months to lose the 24.5lb he put on - including 9 months to lose just the final 4.5lb.

Also, in terms of calorie burn, your nephew’s workouts wouldn’t explain why he can eat 2000 calories more than recommended. I am sure that his high activity HAS got a lot to do with it but it’s not the case that he’s doing 2000 calories worth of extra exercise a day.

[quote Sparklfairy]@Honestopinion23 reminds me of Supersize Me. Analysis of the results showed he was eating on average 5000 calories a day, and really he should have put on far more weight in the 30 days eating McDonald's than he did. Plus when he went on a 'detox' vegan diet after filming, it took a full 14 months to lose the 24.5lb he put on - including 9 months to lose just the final 4.5lb.[/quote]
Yup, totally. It’s tempting to think that it’s a perfect equation and that fat people are just fat because they eat loads of food but the reality is much more complex. And short term experiments where a lean person tries to get fat very quickly are pretty useless in terms of telling us much about overweight people who have gained weight gradually or have been obese since childhood.

Tbh, I do think that young men often tend to be a bit of an anomaly - lots seem to be able to eat like absolute horses and not be overweight, especially if they’re into working out.

It's because of yet another hormone - testosterone. An advantage men have over women.

testosterone and weight in men

Men find it easier to lose weight as they have more water in their bodies, women have more fat.

Men also have more muscle mass which again uses up more calories when used. And by used I mean everyday basic activity.

Yes, so the calorie balance in the example of the nephew could work out about right - if he needs 3000ish maintenance calories and then works out really hard for a couple of hours (depends what he does) and burns another 1000ish.

I'd have no interest in how many calories a twenty something male weight lifter can consume. That is not going to be relevant to a 51 year old desk jockey

I certainly think from my observations is that many people there massively overestimate how many calories they burn and underestimate how many calories they consume. This is where a PT can make a huge difference.

I coach the learn to row and novices down my local rowing club. A learn to row course lasts 10 weeks and incorporates land and on the water training three times a week. Participants are really pushed hard on the erg machines, circuits and on the water. For many, even supposed regular gym goers it's an eye opener as to what a 'proper' workout is. After the initial 10 weeks you can already see peoples physique changing. The novices train 4 times a week. When participants take it seriously and attend all sessions for the novice season they are quite literally different looking people by the end of it.

I know the calories in and out school of thought is a crude formula but it's a sound sound one. When you see people on here honestly claiming they are eating 1000 calories a day yet still putting on weight I just assume they are deluding themselves over their diet.

@WhatATimeToBeAlive

Metabolism? Overweight people burn fewer calories

How much fat you carry isn't related to how many calories your body burns, any more than how big a back pack you carry. What burns the calories is the muscle and the functions taking place underneath.

So, if you're purely going on how much fat a person has, the logical conclusion would be that a person carrying a lot of fat would burn calories faster, because of the excess weight they're needing to carry. If you're going on the hypothesis that overweight people don't move about much, you might have a point, but it's a very very shaky hypothesis.

I think that the basic calculations are CICO, but it’s is not as simple as that, it probably makes up a large part of it, but the type of food you are eating will affect that as different macro nutrients burn more calories being digested, it’s really hard to accurately track everything single thing we eat and drink, movement trackers are not 100% accurate and your body composition burns more calories the more muscular you are (for the same person turning fat into muscle), plus gut biome probably helps, standing a lot instead of sitting will burn more calories but not count as walking or on the Fitbit.

People also say they calorie count but guess over the weekend and forget or have cheat days. It must be very hard to get 100% accurate studies where everything and everyone is accurately tracked for long periods of time.

I think we all need to accept that we can’t eat everything we want to eat and treats and alcohol need to be limited and if we are sitting all day, walking 3000 steps and eating what we want, then the chances are we are going to gain weight. There are too many high calorie treats out there and it’s alwAys just a packet of crisps and just a ......, plus alcohol alters how we burn calories so it’s doubly bad.

I burn about 600 calories more on the days I track at 15k steps as opposed to 4K steps and whilst I would agree that’s not highly accurate, it does give an indicator that I do need to keep moving. Keeping to the 15k steps really helps keep me on track with my weight

How much fat you carry isn't related to how many calories your body burns, any more than how big a back pack you carry. What burns the calories is the muscle and the functions taking place underneath.
Sweating profusely burns calories, using your body to do any physical activity will burn calories the muscle builds later.

Of course carrying extra weights will burn extra calories it takes hard work to carry a few stone during a workout.

Dogs need to reduce their calories as they age because they slow down and need less to survive otherwise they get too heavy.

Humans need to base calories in against calories out to balance taking age, fitness level, lifestyle into consideration to stay fit.

There’s also the fact that calorie counts on packets are allowed to be off by up to 20% so the ‘I track everything’ people aren’t even being accurate.
But generally, when people are dieting and especially when they are stuck at a plateau, they do tend to track. It’s convenient to think they’re all delusional and are eating 1000 calories of mayonnaise that they forgot about but most of them probably aren’t. The studies have shown that after a while, calorie reduction stops producing weight loss as the body adapts. Even on very low calorie diets. Or at the least, the rate of loss slows down exponentially and bears no resemblance to the CICO claims about 3500 cal deficit. For instance, people on shake diets, where their intake is very precisely monitored and there’s no chance they are underestimating their intake usually hit a plateau after a while where they can have no loss whatsoever for weeks, yet on paper a huge caloric deficit.

Also, please show the evidence that we NEED to eat whole grains

It's been fairly well established that the healthiest diets globally involve whole grains. But it you're not interested in longevity, or reduced risk of numerous diseases of aging, don't bother.

And do you tell vegetarians that they are ‘cutting out an entire food group’?

Vegetarians can obtain protein from legumes, eggs, dairy, etc. They are not cutting out a food group - that would be vegans.

The studies have shown that after a while, calorie reduction stops producing weight loss as the body adapts

Only because if a 15st person reduces calorie intake that would only maintain 10st, they get to 10st and then maintain.

Otherwise the genius of human intelligence would have worked out that we could all gradually be conditioned to eat nothing and sustain our weight.

Or at the least, the rate of loss slows down exponentially and bears no resemblance to the CICO claims about 3500 cal deficit

It never bears any resemblance to this, because although fat sticks to the laws of thermodynamics, the human body isn't a controlled scientific site for releasing its energy. Also, your fat won't have the same number of kcal per pound as mine, just the same as the fact that we're not the same height, and you've got a much bigger nose, and your natural smell is much worse Human bodies are all very very different. (I'm sure you smell lovely really)

I do not have much experience except my mother has yo yo dieted her entire life still in her 70s on diets. I work with a lady who was obese and had a big love of food especially sweet things. She has lost weight by eating really good proper food. Say for example cauliflower cheese she will give into that want and buy the best quality vegetable and best cheese and really enjoy the ritual of the meal. I think she changed her relationship with food to be less of a battle. I think half the time it is mindless eating and not what was really wanted but happens to be to hand. She will roast a pork belly or cook a beef joint but she does it as if in the best restaurant and shares it with friends. She cooks everything from scratch using the best quality ingredients and she is very against gimmicky food. It seems to work for her. She also runs her own business so is moving weights at a point when most retire . It keeps her busy in a positive way as in it’s her passion. I would certainly like to learn from this but I still eat processed food because I am often too lazy to cook but I really think she is on to something and I imagine growing your own would hugely benefit your relationship with food. I think we have been too removed from the source too emotionally coerced into eating . It’s around you 24/7 the temptation to treat oneself

The studies have shown that after a while, calorie reduction stops producing weight loss as the body adapts

Only because if a 15st person reduces calorie intake that would only maintain 10st, they get to 10st and then maintain.

No, it goes beyond this and for most people who are quite severely overweight, the loss will slow down long before they reach their goal weight. It definitely can’t be solely explained by loss of body mass. In the Biggest Loser people for example, their bodies had adapted to the extent that they required considerably fewer calories to maintain than someone of the same height and weight who had not been overweight. It also doesn’t explain why someone drinking exante shakes can have several weeks with no loss because whatever they weigh, their intake would produce a significant deficit. Also doesn’t explain why someone who’s had bariatric surgery will lose weight and then stop, despite eating only a quarter of an average person’s food intake for the rest of their lives. Why do their bodies not follow the CICO laws?