To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

Thanks @Scottishflower65 that's really informative and congratulations on your loss which is very impressive. I think that surgery is often seen as 'too extreme', leading people with 14 stone to lose to try to do it on their own, which is very unlikely to lead to any success because it's such a huge amount to lose and the body will fight it. For someone who has gotten to that weight, surgery is likely to be a better option to allow them to reset their relationship to food and it's a shame that people feel ashamed to admit to having had surgery, as if it is some sort of failure. How many other conditions do we insist that people cure on their own without medical help?

I think that for people with milder and moderate obesity that lower carb eating that removes the carvings is a better way forward, as you have demonstrated by your success. I find low carb so much more enjoyable than trying to reduce my fat levels or calories. I'd be happy if I never ate cake again in my life, whereas I've heard countless times people saying that life without cake isn't worth living. When I ate a high carb diet, I would have agreed with them. The thought of not binge eating again would make me feel depressed (despite hating being fat) whereas cutting carbs has also got rid of that emotional attachment to them.

I will also add that doing plans like slimfast can be psychologically hard, as other people always like to give you their negative opinion. It’s not for the sensitive. I’ve heard so so many “eeew yuck”, “I hate milkshake”, “can’t be good for you”, “I couldn’t do it it makes me gag” comments. I have perfected the silent stare and the retort “hmmm yes I can see you haven’t attempted it”.

I don’t slag off your calorie laden cappuccino, burger and fries. So fuck off with telling me my lunch is grim.

As someone who had their thyroid removed a couple of years ago, it is definitely not easy to maintain or lose weight. CICO, if only!!
I’ve lost count of the number of people who give unsolicited advice on how to lose weight. Well, good luck. Then there’s the group who think that I just have to take a tablet & everything’s ok - no!!

Have a read of anti-diet by Christy Harrison, she also has a great podcast - dieting is pretty well proven to not work, your body size is pretty well determined by genetics and other factors you can't control. Being marginalised/stigmatised for being in a larger body has been shown in studies to be much worse for your health than any health issues directly caused by being in a larger body. Diet culture is so bad for all of us - it's much more likely that by intentionally trying to lose weight you'll end up larger then when you started, as your body apparently increases the normal body size range for you to protect you from future 'famines'. It also takes over you whole life. As a society we need to stop persecuting people for their body size, rather than encouraging people to diet. Surgery isn't the answer either - it also doesn't work long term and can kill you!

If only there was an answer. Diets are so bad, promoted by people interested in profit either by over the counter sales or social media. Also there is no quick fix it's a long haul which is why so many fall by the wayside. Unfortunately we live in the 2020's where access to so much 'bad' food is overwhelming, easy to obtain and seen as the only option if your income is low.

You’re in denial.

In my experience more activity does work. I know I put on weight when I was driving and without any walking on my comute to work. Now I am walking more as using public transport and already noticed the difference. No change in diet whatsoever. Also in a job where I spend less time sitting down. I think it all helps in the long term.

@Lemons1571 I don't knock it, but didn't you miss chewing? I really did.

I used to be fat but I dieted and changed how I eat & now I’m slim.

@Sparklfairy I was distracted by working from home full time so didn’t really notice. Slimfast also do a great porridge at 99 cals, and their meal bars are the same number of calories as their shakes (so there are chewing alternatives!)

Calories in calories out is bollocks, as are pretty much all diets, in terms of weight loss. Something like 92-96% of people end up gaining the weight back because once you have starved yourself for some number of months to achieve a certain weight you have to keep on starving yourself to stay there. (Because CICO is bollocks.) It's unsustainable, and even if I could sustain it I wouldn't, because who wants to spend every minute of the rest of their life hungry?

If you don't have a weight problem, a bit of light dieting may well keep you that half a stone lighter without impacting on your personal happiness too much. But for most people who do have a weight problem diets don't work. They only lead to weight cycling and misery.

So what does work? 1) Letting go of the idea of being thin and focusing on the idea of being healthy. You CAN be fit and healthy while being fat. Just try to eat food with nutritional value instead of processed crap and get as much exercise as you can. Being thin is not achievable for everyone, but being healthy is. 2) Reject the notion that your body is wrong the way it is and accept that, until science figures out why your body wants to weigh 4 stone more than you want it to weigh, this is you, and your body is a good body just as it is.

Surgery works for some people, but other people are left with physical effects that are very unpleasant and not reversible. I would personally not risk getting an unnecessary surgery that might make me feel like I had morning sickness for the rest of my life. But maybe if I were more obese than I am I would feel differently.

@Nearly47

In my experience more activity does work. I know I put on weight when I was driving and without any walking on my comute to work. Now I am walking more as using public transport and already noticed the difference. No change in diet whatsoever. Also in a job where I spend less time sitting down. I think it all helps in the long term.

Well, yes, just look at all the people who've gained weight over lockdown because they don't go anywhere.

CICO doesn’t work because (latest science) all calories are not equal. The way in which we process different foodstuffs is quite complex. Fat, has been seen as the great enemy for decades, since the wealthy sugar industry lobbied politicians in the UK & the UK. Both a low fat diet and a low sugar diet were being promoted in the 60s as healthy by their respective ‘developers’. There is very little money in fat, so the sugar lobby won out and low fat diets were adopted by the establishment. It is now so ingrained in the cultural psyche that fat is bad that, despite considerable evidence from robust scientific studies over several years now, even the department of health still bleats on about the benefits of keeping fat in our diets low. Fat, including animal fat, actually slows down digestion and considerably slows down the rates at which sugars (including natural sugars) are released in the body. Excess sugar is strongly associated with weight gain. Because it is digested slowly, fat also keeps us fuller for longer. There is also a lot of evidence that consumption of fat makes no difference to the body’s cholesterol levels!

The ‘quick and dirty’ advice to simply move more, eat less only serves to further stigmatise anyone considered overweight.

CICO is the only thing that works for me - both in terms of weight loss and maintaining.

It's eye opening when you realise how many calories you are putting away - to lose weight I need to eat no more than about 1200 calories but to maintain that weight its around 1700 which is hardly starving myself, it's a pretty sensible amount for my level of activity and height etc. Half the problem is people are in denial/not honest with themselves about how much they are eating (or drinking).

That should read the UK and the US 😳

Well I've lost six stone by CICO method and, so far, finding it easy to maintain by varying my calorie intake day to day and, likewise varying exercise. Of course it's early days and have only been on maintenance for about three months but so far so good and not finding things difficult.

@Honestopinion23
I’ve really enjoyed this thread OP. You have distilled a lot of the latest advances in understanding obesity extremely well. Sorry if I missed it but do you work in healthcare of some sort? Well done on keeping off the 43 pounds of fat. I’m guessing a lot of that was visceral fat which low carb seems to almost target? I also add in some seasonal natural carbs for some days in late Summer / Autumn, mainly from my garden. So some potatoes and fresh fruit. Followed by some intermittent fasting, usually 18 hours to reset the insulin levels. There is a lot of evidence re the health benefits of fasting. Quoting from another academic article -
“Evidence is accumulating that eating in a 6-hour period and fasting for 18 hours can trigger a metabolic switch from glucose-based to ketone-based energy, with increased stress resistance, increased longevity, and a decreased incidence of diseases, including cancer and obesity.” (de Cabo and Mattson, 2019).
Interesting how they refer to obesity as a disease.

Tbh I put on weight when I am depressed and anxious and there isn't much I can do to stop it. When at my worst j am just trying to get through the day, and I don't have the brain power to be able to think about calories.

I think there needs to be more research about the link, and consideration given about what can be done about it.

How on earth can CICO be bollocks?

People are actually arguing against the law of Conservation of Energy, and mathematics itself.

Utterly mind boggling.

@Diva66

You’re in denial.

Who is? And about what? Because I’ve outlined my experience in the thread and so have others. I have reached a healthy weight now through researching the science behind calorie restrictive diets. If anyone is in denial, I’d say it’s the people who swear blind that CICO works even though nearly everyone regains what little they lose.

@SofiaMichelle

How on earth can CICO be bollocks?

People are actually arguing against the law of Conservation of Energy, and mathematics itself.

Utterly mind boggling.

Read BIWI’s posts above. CICO is an inaccurate grossly oversimplified attempt at explaining what happens in the body. If it worked a charm, we wouldn’t have an obesity crisis.

Read / listen to the obesity code...cico long term doesn't work

I agree that CICO doesn't work. The body outsmarts that idea.
Personally I don't think the Atkins or Keto methods are healthy.
But I am a strong believer in eating healthily (including healty fats), building muscle, brisk walking and stretching as a route to a healthy body. (Now if only I could find time for all that LOL)

Sofia, think in terms of a calorimeter in a lab burning foodstuffs to measure calorie content and compare to a digestive system.

Before claiming CICO doesn’t work I’d be looking at the veracity of the calorie claims on packaging and margin of error.
As a person who needs to watch what I eat to stay within a healthy BMI, knowing the caloric value of a food is important.
But when faced with something yummy it’s easy to come up with 101 excuses.
Easy to be lazy and complacent as well.